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JowGaWolf

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@Hanzou

Ran across this. This is the same system (Hung Ga) that you posted.


People actually sparring using Hung Ga


Then you have this. I hear good things about Sifu Albright, but for me I would never spar against someone like this. I can only guess this is light sparring where one person throws a technique (not at full speed) where the Sifu is reacting to it. So this would be more like a drill I guess. For example, If I were to do something like this then, I would have you first start with jabs. First a single jab and from that I would have to apply various Jow Ga techniques to your jab. Some of your jabs will get through but that's not the point. The point is I have to be able to do some kind of Kung Fu in response to your jab. If a jab gets through then that means I screwed up . Then I would move to 1-2 jab combination and I would repeat the same thing. The goal here is to know what to do with the jab and to accept that I'm going to get hit with the jab because I'm learning. When I think too many people see this as Kung Fu (video below). But in reality I can't see someone getting into a real fight and doing the same thing and not think they would pay a price for it. Keep in mind the year that the video was made in.


I found this video because I didn't want to Give the Impression that Sifu Albright didn't know what he was doing. The clip below has him sparring in what seems to be a competition. Notice how he spars in that vs how he spars in the video below. Which fall in line with what I was originally thinking about his video. But people will see the fancy kung fu video and think they will fight like that in a real fight and the truth is. Nope. It will be more like the one below. Will you use kung fu techniques? yes Will it look Kung Fu fancy? Nope
 

Hanzou

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@Hanzou

Ran across this. This is the same system (Hung Ga) that you posted.


People actually sparring using Hung Ga


Then you have this. I hear good things about Sifu Albright, but for me I would never spar against someone like this. I can only guess this is light sparring where one person throws a technique (not at full speed) where the Sifu is reacting to it. So this would be more like a drill I guess. For example, If I were to do something like this then, I would have you first start with jabs. First a single jab and from that I would have to apply various Jow Ga techniques to your jab. Some of your jabs will get through but that's not the point. The point is I have to be able to do some kind of Kung Fu in response to your jab. If a jab gets through then that means I screwed up . Then I would move to 1-2 jab combination and I would repeat the same thing. The goal here is to know what to do with the jab and to accept that I'm going to get hit with the jab because I'm learning. When I think too many people see this as Kung Fu (video below). But in reality I can't see someone getting into a real fight and doing the same thing and not think they would pay a price for it. Keep in mind the year that the video was made in.


I found this video because I didn't want to Give the Impression that Sifu Albright didn't know what he was doing. The clip below has him sparring in what seems to be a competition. Notice how he spars in that vs how he spars in the video below. Which fall in line with what I was originally thinking about his video. But people will see the fancy kung fu video and think they will fight like that in a real fight and the truth is. Nope. It will be more like the one below. Will you use kung fu techniques? yes Will it look Kung Fu fancy? Nope

Eh, I really don’t view much of that as viable. I’m seeing way too many openings for punches to the face, and takedown opportunities. I’d need to see those hand techniques being used against a more boxing-like style, or even in a more professional fighter based situation (which is also boxing-based), because that is the style you’re more likely to encounter in a situation.
 

JowGaWolf

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The first one is easy. You cover the lead hand and follow with a back fist. It's really simple. Not much to it, very practical. Screen shot of the same technique used on me. His rear hand goes to pull down my lead guard and he feeds a back fist through just like in the first video. It lands.
upload_2020-10-25_13-8-14.png


The other part where you can use that same motion to block a kick, also works, but I wouldn't recommended it. It's better to use it against a rising knee. I blocked a rising kick once and I thought I broke my arm. The only way I would use it against a kick is if I could get to the knee rising part of the kick. Below are screenshots from one of may sparring videos.

Here is me pulling the same technique off. Rear hand pulls opponent's lead hand then feed the backhand.
upload_2020-10-25_13-28-58.png


Same technique done a second time. Pull lead hand
upload_2020-10-25_13-31-31.png


This is the impact from the picture directly above. The backfist lands hard enough to make his head turn. As long as that impact is hard enough, it will break their structure to throw anything else.
upload_2020-10-25_13-34-37.png


Same technique done a 3rd time. If you were to see the video, you would see that I used this technique often on him. This time I'm using it against a punch. You can see my right hand moving into the backfist.
upload_2020-10-25_13-38-13.png


This is what happens to the reverse punch after contact. Notice how his structure changes.
upload_2020-10-25_13-41-18.png


Almost just like the video. Note the position of my hands.
upload_2020-10-25_13-43-45.png


He tried to counter with a kick. It went right by me.
upload_2020-10-25_13-46-7.png
 

JowGaWolf

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Same Hung Ga technique but this times it applies to a kick. His downward hand addresses my kick My guard hand is up so I can protect myself against his backfist.
upload_2020-10-25_14-8-23.png


So as you can see, very practical.
 

Hanzou

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@JowGaWolf

These are sparring sessions. Do you have any examples of street fights or MMA competitions? I want to see these techniques being employed if someone's trying to take your head off.
 

JowGaWolf

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@JowGaWolf

These are sparring sessions. Do you have any examples of street fights or MMA competitions? I want to see these techniques being employed if someone's trying to take your head off.

These are sparring sessions with 2 people actively trying to hit each other. The only real difference is the intensity used. It's like a Jab. You can Jab light or you can Jab hard. Either way, it works both in sparring and in competition because the concept is sound and very practical. As for finding it used in street fights or MMA, that may be a difficult one.

In order to find this in a street fight or mma competition, the fighter would have to know the technique. If the fighter doesn't know of the technique then you won't see it. You have to know it first, before you can use it.
 

JowGaWolf

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@Hanzou
Yep. it's what I expected. Gotta find someone who knows the technique then find that person actually using that technique Really difficult, especially when searching backfist only bring us spinning back fist.
 

Hanzou

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These are sparring sessions with 2 people actively trying to hit each other. The only real difference is the intensity used. It's like a Jab. You can Jab light or you can Jab hard. Either way, it works both in sparring and in competition because the concept is sound and very practical. As for finding it used in street fights or MMA, that may be a difficult one.

In order to find this in a street fight or mma competition, the fighter would have to know the technique. If the fighter doesn't know of the technique then you won't see it. You have to know it first, before you can use it.

No, the difference is intent and intensity. If we're just practicing in a friendly sparring match, things are completely different than if one person is pissed off and trying to hurt or even kill you. In your posts, I see 2 Kung Fu guys engaged in friendly sparring. Nothing's really at stake there, and when nothing's at stake, you tend to do all sorts of wacky stuff in an attempt to experiment. When someone wants to seriously hurt you, you don't do wacky stuff, you get serious and do whatever you can to survive. I want to see those flowing hand movements when their well being is on the line. If I can't get that, I would at least like to see it when they're really fighting someone in a cage or a ring.

I'm also not looking for a specific technique. I just want to see Kung Fu in the ring or a street fight. Not Kung Fu that looks like kickboxing, Kung Fu with the weird hand techniques, overextended/exaggerated arm movements, and open-handed strikes like you showed in those sparring vids.
 

punisher73

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Yes, let's compare medicine and infections to training methods. Bad analogy is bad.



Then please explain why someone taking Karate for example needs kata, while someone who practices Muay Thai doesn't, yet Muay Thai is never viewed as an inferior martial art.

Good point, except that traditional Muay Thai, called Muay Boran, utilizes forms.

The reason? Kata is usually dealing with self-defense scenarios beyond just punching and kicking.
 

Hanzou

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Good point, except that traditional Muay Thai, called Muay Boran, utilizes forms.

The reason? Kata is usually dealing with self-defense scenarios beyond just punching and kicking.

I would argue that the vast majority of people are practicing Muay Thai, not Muay Boran, and are perfectly capable of defending themselves without the traditional fluff.
 

JowGaWolf

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In your posts, I see 2 Kung Fu guys engaged in friendly sparring. Nothing's really at stake there, and when nothing's at stake, you tend to do all sorts of wacky stuff in an attempt to experiment.
We weren't experimenting with the technique. We know it works. Sort of like a Jab. When you know it works then you have a lot of example of it working.

Nothing's really at stake there, and when nothing's at stake, you tend to do all sorts of wacky stuff in an attempt to experiment.
There is always something at stake, you can still get hit, you can still get hurt, and you can still fail at doing the technique. If you are sparring to learn, then you are trying to learn how to do things the right way and not the wacky way. That's why you see Jabs and hooks still used in light sparring. It's the same reason why you see this technique used more than once.

When someone wants to seriously hurt you, you don't do wacky stuff, you get serious and do whatever you can to survive.
Here's another example
upload_2020-10-25_19-47-59.png



And another.
upload_2020-10-25_19-48-36.png


I can show the same consistency with jabs.

If I can't get that, I would at least like to see it when they're really fighting someone in a cage or a ring.
like I said. This requires that the person in the ring knows the technique and knows how to use it.

I just want to see Kung Fu in the ring or a street fight. Not Kung Fu that looks like kickboxing, Kung Fu with the weird hand techniques, overextended/exaggerated arm movements, and open-handed strikes like you showed in those sparring vids.
The only one that I've seen so far is the long circular punches like you see me use. MMA fighters like that one. You may see others pop up in the future as MMA fighters look for new and unfamiliar ways to strike.

But I'm like you as well. Too often I see Kung Fu practitioners abandon their techniques and I wish they wouldn't. I'm not bragging about myself, or feeding my EGO. There are very few Kung Fu people who can show screenshots and clips of them actually doing Kung as you have described. Like how many people other than me. I personally only know of one other.
This is the other guy. Other him and me, I don't know of any other from Jow Ga. He has a family full of fighters. He trains his kids to fight and he's a Jow Ga Practitioner. He has a couple of videos that show Jow Ga techniques and him actually using it in sparring. He spars with more intensity then I do. He also gets injured more as a result. The last time I sparred as hard as him was when I was training for competition. Other than me and this guy. I don't know anyone that I could show actually doing kung fu techniques as you want to see them.
 

JowGaWolf

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I would argue that the vast majority of people are practicing Muay Thai, not Muay Boran, and are perfectly capable of defending themselves without the traditional fluff.
Traditonal Muay Boran

There are some martial arts that have fluff. But not all of them. Some of the martial arts stuff that's out there are has quite a bit of practical techniques.
 
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Hanzou

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Traditonal Muay Boran

There are some martial arts that have fluff. But not all of them. Some of the martial arts stuff that's out there are has quite a bit of practical techniques.

Meh. I've seen fighters with zero Muay Boran training do those exact same techniques. Beautiful stuff though. I'm a huge fan/advocate of Muay Thai, so that vid gets a thumbs up from me regardless.
 

JowGaWolf

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I think the reason there aren't more kung fu fighters is because there are too many that are interested in Silk Kung Fu wear. I don't think there are many that have the interest in fighting. Then you have people like Bruce lee talking about the best way to win a fight is not to fight. Or however that saying goes. Then you have those who say kung fu is only for health, like what China did. So now you have a bunch of Kung Fu practitioners like this.
David-Carradine-starring--001.jpg


And not enough like this. It's hard to understand him, but he talks about the focus that people have and how they focus on making their forms look nice. He brings ups some of the same things that I've said and others have said here.

So when people do forms like this, what is their focus. 95% of them are probably focused on a form looking nice.
 

Hanzou

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But I'm like you as well. Too often I see Kung Fu practitioners abandon their techniques and I wish they wouldn't. I'm not bragging about myself, or feeding my EGO. There are very few Kung Fu people who can show screenshots and clips of them actually doing Kung as you have described. Like how many people other than me. I personally only know of one other.
This is the other guy. Other him and me, I don't know of any other from Jow Ga. He has a family full of fighters. He trains his kids to fight and he's a Jow Ga Practitioner. He has a couple of videos that show Jow Ga techniques and him actually using it in sparring. He spars with more intensity then I do. He also gets injured more as a result. The last time I sparred as hard as him was when I was training for competition. Other than me and this guy. I don't know anyone that I could show actually doing kung fu techniques as you want to see them.

Okay, what about CMAs other than Jow Ga?

Here's the problem; in the modern era, if the only public view I see is people from your MA getting KO'd by mediocre to bad MMA guys, why would I join your school over the MMA gym? If I'm seeing Kung Fu guys getting KO'd by street fighters with zero training after the former has spent 20 years doing whatever the hell he was doing in his Kwoon, why would I study CMA to defend myself?

Based on the amount of work you do to try to make Jow Ga a viable fighting art, I really think you and your friend need to do some local MMA fights and film them. I think it would go a long way for the development of your MA. I think that's your goal, and if it is, you're just spinning your tires doing all this in-house sparring.
 

JowGaWolf

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Meh. I've seen fighters with zero Muay Boran training do those exact same techniques.
That's because some of the techniques aren't specific to Muay Boran. I know that the leaping knee is found in multiple martial arts system. So not learning it from one system doesn't mean you can't learn it from another one. Kung Fu Long fist is a perfect example. How many people in MMA who actually use that technique had to take kung fu in order to learn it.
 

Hanzou

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That's because some of the techniques aren't specific to Muay Boran. I know that the leaping knee is found in multiple martial arts system. So not learning it from one system doesn't mean you can't learn it from another one. Kung Fu Long fist is a perfect example. How many people in MMA who actually use that technique had to take kung fu in order to learn it.

No, I mean some of those applications from the form are already within Muay Thai technique lists. In other words, you don't ever need to learn the form to learn those techniques when you study Muay Thai. Good luck even finding a Muay Boran school outside of Thailand.
 

JowGaWolf

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Okay, what about CMAs other than Jow Ga?
I've seen some guys out of the Choy li fut and Hop Ga camps that were nice fighters. They actually try to use the techniques and can pull off certain ones fairly consistently.

Here's the problem; in the modern era, if the only public view I see is people from your MA getting KO'd by mediocre to bad MMA guys, why would I join your school over the MMA gym?
Easy. Because it wasn't me getting KO's by the bad or mediocre MMA guy lol I would just tell you not to go to that guy's school lol. Then if you wanted to spar in order to test me out then I would be open to that.

You would sign a waiver and then the rules would be. You get what you give. If you want to spar hard then I will spar hard and we will both suffer from injuries. I would also let you know that the harder we spar the less willing I'll be to pull punches. From there it will be up to you to set the pace.

Based on the amount of work you do to try to make Jow Ga a viable fighting art
I haven't made Jow Ga viable. It was viable already. It only took me to understand what you see on the videos. Once I understood it, things became easier.

I really think you and your friend need to do some local MMA fights and film them. I think it would go a long way for the development of your MA. I think that's your goal, and if it is, you're just spinning your tires doing all this in-house sparring.
The in house sparring wasn't bad. It gave me what I needed. In addition we had people from other systems in our school so they would often revert back to that system. I wouldn't be able to pass the physical for MMA now. Too old and high blood pressure. The most I would be able to get away these days is just that friendly sparring that you hate lol.

I was planning to do competition a few years back but my wife was diagnosed with cancer, so I had to give up that idea so I could focus on her. Not a big loss all things considered. I would still go a few rounds with MMA guys maybe next year as I'm getting my blood pressure under control. It wouldn't be the first time that I've sparred against an MMA fighter.
 

Hanzou

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I've seen some guys out of the Choy li fut and Hop Ga camps that were nice fighters. They actually try to use the techniques and can pull off certain ones fairly consistently.

Any videos of these fighters? I'd like to see them.

Easy. Because it wasn't me getting KO's by the bad or mediocre MMA guy lol I would just tell you not to go to that guy's school lol. Then if you wanted to spar in order to test me out then I would be open to that.

I haven't made Jow Ga viable. It was viable already. It only took me to understand what you see on the videos. Once I understood it, things became easier.

But the Jow Ga school you attended didn't offer sparring, and if I'm not mistaken you don't run a school. How can you say Jow Ga is viable if the schools don't even allow you to spar?

I was planning to do competition a few years back but my wife was diagnosed with cancer, so I had to give up that idea so I could focus on her. Not a big loss all things considered. I would still go a few rounds with MMA guys maybe next year as I'm getting my blood pressure under control. It wouldn't be the first time that I've sparred against an MMA fighter.

Sorry to hear about your wife. Family comes first always IMO. Take care of her and make sure she beats cancer.
 

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