Attach something moral to something evil, to make it seem good to many

[SahBumNimRush]

Can you find the Hanja (traditional Chinese characters) for it? I'm not sure I follow.

My point was that by learning as much of the culture as were are capable of learning, we can get closer to the source of knowledge, hence "correctly" learning more about the skills, and everything else.

I agree with that 100%.

Wu Wei: Chinese: 無為, 无为, or in Korean: 무위 Moo Ui?

 

[puunui]

Similarly, and on a TKD associated note the concept of Self Reliance, and Self determination are not Moraly Bad, but when adopted by the North Korean Tyrannical rulers (Note: the person credited with formulating the Ju Che philosophy later defected from NK) to promote and foster their agenda it was bad.

When was the tul Juche adopted by the ITF? Who created it? Also, do you practice that form?

 

[mastercole]

Communism and Socialism as economic systems would not be considered by most to be moraly "Bad" , but when corrupted thru Marxism or Leninism, in practice they were bad.

Similarly, and on a TKD associated note the concept of Self Reliance, and Self determination are not Moraly Bad, but when adopted by the North Korean Tyrannical rulers (Note: the person credited with formulating the Ju Che philosophy later defected from NK) to promote and foster their agenda it was bad.

The Buddha said that "the motive is more important than the deed", the deed is canceled out by wrong motive. At best, the deed is hollow, at worst, it's damaging.

A person could do a seemingly good deed for a man dying of thirst by giving him a map to clean, fresh, good, pure water. But if that person knew that by following this map, to what the water starved man needed and desired, he would be ambushed and destroyed by evil men,

I see it like this. Say a "Vito Corleone" type creates and writes down a Mafia Code of Conduct, in an exact order like the one below and had his "family" memorize these. Vito Corleone names these codes "codice di condotta." Vito Corleone now attached something good to his evil motives, and he did so with evil intent. So we know that he specifically wrote these good things in a way to benefit evil, the presentation, the content and the order end up being evil by motive. Bad Karma?

A Person who is not a mafia member is introduced to teh "codice di condotta" and taught these codes, they learn them in the exact order and title that Vito Corleone himself wrote out and this non-mafia member begins teaching them to others, by title and order that Vito made, and it spreads to hundreds of thousands. This person later finds out who and what Vito Corleone really was, what his aim and motive was. What does this person do?

Posted again for quick reference:

The Never look at the wives of friends.
Bars and drinking halls are off limits
Loyalty is unconditional
Honor appointments
Treat wives and family with love and respect
Answer truthfully
Another families assets must be protected
Disassociate with untrustworthy persons
Avoid anyone who behaves badly
Don’t be seen with those who do not hold to moral values

Cosa nostra codice di condotta

 

[RobinTKD]

It's part of the ITF curriculum for your 3rd Dan black belt, I imagine that Master Weiss does practice it. Why do you ask Glenn? Is there a story behind it that I haven't heard?

 

[mastercole]

Then you have the question of what defines being religious, regardless of the religion. Many people I know are essentially non-religious, but if asked, will say this, that, or the other religion or denomenation.

I think that religion often defines the traditions that we are raised in and observe; many people who have virtually no attachment to church participate in Thanksgiving and Christmas because it the tradition in which they were raised.

So, in short, I agree; it really does come down to the individual.

Yes, it does, I agree. However, in the context of Taekwondo, Poomsae can be considered "religious" using a literal translation of the Latin word. Poomsae starts at a certain point called "MA", and the practitioner performing the Poomsae is actually "reviewing" everything about the true self "I" in relation to "Won Bang Gak." This Review: ~ to look back ~ brings the practitioner back to the beginning ("MA" position), to the source of any error, because the error existed in the mind before it became apparent in the review, so the practitioner is looking back to the original if the false "I", the root of the error.

Religion, in means the same thing. To go back, specifically to the source of desire (delusion/suffering/ignorance), in order to identify where these errors came from in the first place. Then we can review the truth, and correct it. Poomsae is self review.

 

[puunui]

It's part of the ITF curriculum for your 3rd Dan black belt, I imagine that Master Weiss does practice it. Why do you ask Glenn? Is there a story behind it that I haven't heard?

You didn't really answer the three questions, but that's ok. What is the story behind juche that you heard? I heard that many ITF members got turned off when juche was introduced, which caused even more people to quit.

 

[Earl Weiss]

When was the tul Juche adopted by the ITF? Who created it? Also, do you practice that form?

The pattern first appears in print in the 15 volume encycloipedia. I think the first publication date was either 1980 or 1983 (don't have my copy here but I am sure you have one So, I don't know the exact date of creation, only first publication. Anecdotaly, at a course in 1990 I had occasion to socialize with General Choi's then son in law and he recounted in an informal conversation how General Choi was working thru the creation of the pattern in his (General Choi's ) home in Canada while he was there. Though he didn't say it it seemed as though the son in law may have been going through some of the moves as General Choi was mapping it out.


Yes, I teach it. I also teach the "ivory tower" meaning and how it was used (coprrupted???) by the NK regime. I think there are lessons in both.

 

[mastercole]

The pattern first appears in print in the 15 volume encycloipedia. I think the first publication date was either 1980 or 1983 (don't have my copy here but I am sure you have one So, I don't know the exact date of creation, only first publication. Anecdotaly, at a course in 1990 I had occasion to socialize with General Choi's then son in law and he recounted in an informal conversation how General Choi was working thru the creation of the pattern in his (General Choi's ) home in Canada while he was there. Though he didn't say it it seemed as though the son in law may have been going through some of the moves as General Choi was mapping it out.


Yes, I teach it. I also teach the "ivory tower" meaning and how it was used (coprrupted???) by the NK regime. I think there are lessons in both.

Do you also teach Ko Dang? Who was Ko Dang?

 

[puunui]

The pattern first appears in print in the 15 volume encycloipedia. I think the first publication date was either 1980 or 1983 (don't have my copy here but I am sure you have one

I believe the first edition of the encyclopedia (which I do have) is dated 1983. One regret that I have is not purchasing the korean language version of the encyclopedia. Maybe an opportunity will pop up in the future.

 

[RobinTKD]

The pattern first appears in print in the 15 volume encycloipedia. I think the first publication date was either 1980 or 1983 (don't have my copy here but I am sure you have one So, I don't know the exact date of creation, only first publication. Anecdotaly, at a course in 1990 I had occasion to socialize with General Choi's then son in law and he recounted in an informal conversation how General Choi was working thru the creation of the pattern in his (General Choi's ) home in Canada while he was there. Though he didn't say it it seemed as though the son in law may have been going through some of the moves as General Choi was mapping it out.


Yes, I teach it. I also teach the "ivory tower" meaning and how it was used (coprrupted???) by the NK regime. I think there are lessons in both.

What is the Ivory Tower meaning Master Weiss? Currently the highest pattern I know is Gae Baek, and the only meaning I know for Juche is the official line...

Juche is the philosopical idea that man is the master of everything and therefore decides and determines his destiny. It is said that this idee was rooted on the Baekdu Mountain that symbolises the spirit of the Korean people. The diagram represents the Baekdu Mountain.

 

[RobinTKD]

You didn't really answer the three questions, but that's ok. What is the story behind juche that you heard? I heard that many ITF members got turned off when juche was introduced, which caused even more people to quit.

Sorry Glenn, I fear I have no answers for you, though looking back at my quote, it does look like I'm implying that I do. All I know of Juche is how it looks, the official meaning and the first few movements.

 

[Earl Weiss]

What is the Ivory Tower meaning Master Weiss? Currently the highest pattern I know is Gae Baek, and the only meaning I know for Juche is the official line...

""Juche is the philosopical idea that man is the master of everything and therefore decides and determines his destiny. It is said that this idee was rooted on the Baekdu Mountain that symbolises the spirit of the Korean people. The diagram represents the Baekdu Mountain. ""

That's it. In a nutshell, Self reliance and self determination.

 

[puunui]

Do you also teach Ko Dang? Who was Ko Dang?

That might be a sensitive subject. Juche replaced Kodang. Kodang I think was an anti-communist rebel, so I can understand why the ITF would take that one out and replace it with Juche, as it was moving towards North Korea. I know that some people have taken tours to visit North Korea, but personally, I really don't need to have that stamp on my passport. Who knows what that sort of thing triggers from the federal government.

 

[mastercole]

That might be a sensitive subject. Juche replaced Kodang. Kodang I think was an anti-communist rebel, so I can understand why the ITF would take that one out and replace it with Juche, as it was moving towards North Korea. I know that some people have taken tours to visit North Korea, but personally, I really don't need to have that stamp on my passport. Who knows what that sort of thing triggers from the federal government.

Interesting.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Do you also teach Ko Dang? Who was Ko Dang?

When I get a chance I will pull the book and copy the text. (Why do I get the ipression you already know the answer?) Glenn gave info below. I know Ko Dang and it is part of the USTF materials as well as Ju Che. I do teach it on an irregular basis since it is no longer a testing requirement.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Do you also teach Ko Dang? Who was Ko Dang?

From the text, complete statement:

"Ko-Dang is the pseudonym of the patriot Cho Man Sik who dedicated his life to the independence movement and education of his people. The 39 movements signify his times of imprisonment and his birthplace on the 39th parallel."

 

[RobinTKD]

From the text, complete statement:

"Ko-Dang is the pseudonym of the patriot Cho Man Sik who dedicated his life to the independence movement and education of his people. The 39 movements signify his times of imprisonment and his birthplace on the 39th parallel."

I'd like to learn this pattern, what year did they replace Ko Dang with Juche?

 

[mastercole]

From the text, complete statement:

"Ko-Dang is the pseudonym of the patriot Cho Man Sik who dedicated his life to the independence movement and education of his people. The 39 movements signify his times of imprisonment and his birthplace on the 39th parallel."

Well, I did not exactly remember the answer, but now I do, so thank you.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I'd like to learn this pattern, what year did they replace Ko Dang with Juche?

I can only tell you it was replaced in the 1983 text. Whether it had any other official replacement date I cannot say.

 

[mastercole]

I can only tell you it was replaced in the 1983 text. Whether it had any other official replacement date I cannot say.

This made me wonder what else was changing. Were the original Oh Do Kwan tenets slightly changed? and if so, was it around this time? Were there other changes happening as well?