Atemi Ryu

Mider1985

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I have been looking at Atemi Ryu and it seems interesting most people at Bullshido make fun of it but then again everyone at bullshido has the personality of a dead carp. If it aint MMA then its gay is there moto.

Anyway I am interested in Atemi Ryu cause it looks pretty interesting but im wondering if you can learn the same things in something like Hapkido or even Dennis Survival Jujitsu or Hisardut by Dr Dennis Hanover

here's some videos of atemi ryu

 
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Haakon

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Looks interesting to me too. Many of the techniques shown in those videos are similar to what I've learned in Hapkido, and much like what I've seen in various Combat Hapkido demos. Would you learn the same thing in Hapkido? Maybe, it would depend on the particular teacher and school, some are much more practical/real world oriented than others. If there is an Atemi Ryu school available and that's what you want to learn I say go for it rather than trying to find another art that is similar.
 

Chris Parker

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Well, there are a few things I could say about the way things are done, and the history presented begs a few questions (such as Take-No-Uchi Kogen Ryu Atemi Jujitsu? Takenouchi Ryu Kogusoku Koshi no Mawari, yes, Kogen Itto Ryu Kenjutsu, yes, but Take-No-Uchi Kogen Ryu? Atemi Jujitsu? A bit more suspect, I fear), but they make no pretence about being an old system, so that's a point in their favour.

I would personally go to something that has a little more continuity, but if you enjoy their classes, why not? After all, it's your experience we're talking about here.
 

Tanaka

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Watching those videos gave me a headache. Such destruction of the Japanese culture/language. As far as their technique... Not my cup of tea.
 

AJuJitsu

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I am a student at The Atemi Ryu School in NC.I would say give it a try.I have taken american kenpo,Tae kwon do and Goju Ryu.What I am learning now seems the most usable for self defense.It is really hard to base an opinion on a couple you tube vids.I can say with out a doubt that Dr Chenique and crew are great instructors.They show you how to make things work for you.If you have anything you wanna know just ask.
 

Chris Parker

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Okay, I'll start.

Leaving off the technical applicability of the techniques, can I ask about the history and lineage? Most specifically, the named source school of Take-No-Uchi Kogen Ryu? As I alluded to above, there is no record of such a school that I can find. In fact, it seems, if one was to be uncharitable, that a few genuine schools names have been used (Takeuchi Ryu, also known as Takenouchi Ryu, and Kogen Itto Ryu), without any real connection there. If that is the case, then I might suggest removing all references to these very well known and highly respected Koryu. Of course, I recognise that simply being a student may not afford you the ability to affect such change, but it's worth asking.

So you know, though, every web search with those words together lead to Atemi Ryu sites, videos on YouTube, or this thread. No where else.
 

Marc Abrams

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Simply not impressed with the postures and the losing of balance in the nage. It is not to say that the movements are not effective, but that the teachers should display sounder fundamentals.

Marc Abrams
 

Tanaka

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Simply not impressed with the postures and the losing of balance in the nage. It is not to say that the movements are not effective, but that the teachers should display sounder fundamentals.

Marc Abrams

You hit the nail on the head with me. I was thinking the same thing. Their posture leaves them off balanced and leaves them open for a counter from the opponent.
 

jks9199

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It looks like they've taken a traditional jujutsu program -- and made it "combat" by dropping the precision out of the movements. I'm not particularly impressed... especially when demos like that are done with fairly low ranked recipients of the techniques... who are just standing there after feeding it.

I'm not going to say they're not training hard, or that they don't have effective techniques. I don't know. I'm just not impressed.
 

tenzen

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Atemi ryu jujutsu was created by dr. Philip chenique. He was a student of moses powell. It is taught along side chendokan aikido, also created by chenique. Takes average of 8 yrs steady training tto reach shodan. Better to find someone who is teaching sanuces in my opinion. Not the same as hapkido but there are a few similarities. Hope this helps.
 

Saitama Steve

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Okay, I'll start.

Leaving off the technical applicability of the techniques, can I ask about the history and lineage? Most specifically, the named source school of Take-No-Uchi Kogen Ryu? As I alluded to above, there is no record of such a school that I can find. In fact, it seems, if one was to be uncharitable, that a few genuine schools names have been used (Takeuchi Ryu, also known as Takenouchi Ryu, and Kogen Itto Ryu), without any real connection there. If that is the case, then I might suggest removing all references to these very well known and highly respected Koryu. Of course, I recognise that simply being a student may not afford you the ability to affect such change, but it's worth asking.

So you know, though, every web search with those words together lead to Atemi Ryu sites, videos on YouTube, or this thread. No where else.

I'd like to expand on this if I may.

Kōgen Ittō-ryū is an offshoot of Nakanishi-ha Ittō-ryū kenjutsu. It's a very effective system of Japanese classical swordsmanship from Saitama Prefecture in the Kantō area of Japan. The founding family are still very much alive and so is the ryūha. Their family were once part of Takeda Shingen's military.

Takenouchi-ryū (One line of three uses the pronunciation, "Takeuchi-ryū") is the oldest systemized jūjutsu system in Japan, being created in 1532. It is famous for it's grappling syllabus, but is also a very well rounded comprehensive school, teaching kenjutsu, bōjutsu and other weapon disciplines. It is based in Okayama Prefecture in the Chūgoku area of Japan. The Takenouchi family are still very much alive and still teach the art. Their family were allied with the Toyotomi.

Geographically they are almost 900km apart from each other. Historically you'd need travel permits from the local domain offices to even leave the "country" you were in. (Old fashioned Japanese sometimes refer to domains as "kuni" (国) or countries.)

Furthermore, the thought of two styles of which had different historical allegiances (Even in modern Japan with some more traditonal minded people, this rivalry still exists) being melded together would be unthinkable.

I have had the privelige knowing practitioners from both schools and actually training with them when I lived in Japan. They are VERY different in terms of body mechanics, tactics, mindset, the works. For lack of a better term, chalk and cheese.

The lack of knowledge of historical & cultural details are always the things that make a fraudulent "made up" ryū stick out like a bulldog's private parts.

This is Takenouchi-ryū . Does it look at all like what was demonstrated above in the videos on the first post? Absolutely not.

There are no videos out of Kōgen Ittō-ryū for a very good reason.

Hope this helps.
 

Chris Parker

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Thanks Steve, this is what I was trying to indirectly say, didn't want to scare the student off.... not that they seemed to come back, I note....

Great clip, by the way. Love noting the similarities between Takenouchi Ryu and Takagi Ryu (not surprising, huh?).
 

Saitama Steve

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Thanks Steve, this is what I was trying to indirectly say, didn't want to scare the student off.... not that they seemed to come back, I note....

Great clip, by the way. Love noting the similarities between Takenouchi Ryu and Takagi Ryu (not surprising, huh?).

Aye, very true Chris.

Not surprising at all considering it's heritage and technical origins.

And the notion of mixing Kōgen Ittō-ryū with Takenouchi-ryū...... Ridiculous!
 

dougmukashi

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The 2nd video in the list above shows some valid concepts/techniques. Watching this video, as with most MA videos I see ,it is difficult to determine the nuances of an art. The instructor is combining techniques in a flow that is good training for a student with some training. Nothing wrong there. He shows a more relaxed stance than most people are used to seeing. That, along with the combinig of multiple pins, locks, breaks, indicates that he is teaching a group of advanced students or demonstrating advanced techniques. My opinion.
 

pgsmith

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I believe that Daito ryu predates this even if you don't believe in the Yoshimitsu story.
According to some people. According to others, there was no Daito ryu prior to Takeda Sokaku.
 

Chris Parker

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I believe that Daito ryu predates this even if you don't believe in the Yoshimitsu story.

Hmm. If you don't believe the Yoshimitsu story (the one that says that Daito Ryu really is an old system, and not created in the late 19th/early 20th Century), then it's still older than Takenouchi Ryu, considered and accepted as the earliest Jujutsu-centered system in Japan, dating from 1532? How does that work?

For the record, I don't think it existed prior to Takeda Sokaku. As far as evidence, well, the art itself provides plenty, including the lack of formal structure prior to Tokimune, the variety of terms used in Menkyo given out by Takeda, the sheer size of the curriculum, the methods themselves, and so on, without even getting into the lack of older records of the Ryu, as opposed to arts like Takenouchi Ryu who are incredibly well documented from their founding onwards.
 

chrispillertkd

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Hmm. If you don't believe the Yoshimitsu story (the one that says that Daito Ryu really is an old system, and not created in the late 19th/early 20th Century), then it's still older than Takenouchi Ryu, considered and accepted as the earliest Jujutsu-centered system in Japan, dating from 1532? How does that work?

For the record, I don't think it existed prior to Takeda Sokaku. As far as evidence, well, the art itself provides plenty, including the lack of formal structure prior to Tokimune, the variety of terms used in Menkyo given out by Takeda, the sheer size of the curriculum, the methods themselves, and so on, without even getting into the lack of older records of the Ryu, as opposed to arts like Takenouchi Ryu who are incredibly well documented from their founding onwards.

Do you have any opinion on what art(s), if any, Sokaku Takeda used when developing Daito Ryu if it doesn't go back to the Aizu clan?

Pax,

Chris
 

Chris Parker

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Hey Chris,

Firstly, I want to say that I personally feel that Takeda Sensei was a singularly gifted martial artist, on a huge number of levels. Secondly, it's very obvious that he had quite a bit of training in a few things, so I don't feel that Daito Ryu was just created out of scratch. I feel that there is a very solid basis to the art, and it's one that I'm quite fond of, really.

When it comes to Sokaku's training, what is unquestioned is that he was trained in Ono-ha Itto Ryu Kenjutsu, and probably/possibly Hozoin Ryu Sojutsu. His family background included members who were known to be skilled with such weapons on both sides, and things like the Itto Ryu are uncontested from everything I've seen. Additionally, he is said to have travelled quite a bit, visiting and training at a number of dojo (there are claims of Jikishinkage Ryu, but they are unverified). Then we have his early training under his father, who was, amongst other things, ranked as a Sumotori at one time.

So I'm not in any doubt about Takeda's training being serious and in-depth, what I question is the idea that Daito Ryu itself, an extensive, unarmoured unarmed-heavy system, dates from when it is claimed to (the late 12th Century, stemming from Minamoto Yoshitsune, who is pretty much a romantic hero for Japanese martial arts). Systems like that are really the product of peacetime, and the late 12th Century was the time of the Genpei Wars (of which the Minamoto clan was a large part), which was followed by the Ashikaga period (fairly turbulent), which moved into the Sengoku Jidai (period of warring states), before getting to the Edo period from the beginning of the 17th Century as the first real time of extended peace. Arts predating this time tend to be weaponry dominant, and although they may have some unarmed, it would tend to be less "developed" in most cases. They would also have far smaller curriculums, not the literally thousands of techniques that Daito Ryu claims.

When we look at the structure of what a Ryu is as well, we get some things that are different from Ryu to Ryu, but some things that are fairly consistent. And one of those consistencies is that the art (Ryu) is passed down in a systematised form, allowing the art to be reliably transmitted. When we then turn back to Daito Ryu, Takeda himself didn't teach Daito Ryu as a systematised art, the formalisation and structure was introduced largely by his son, who also reduced a lot of the weaponry work (giving Ono-ha Itto Ryu it's emphasis again). So that's another gap in the idea that Daito Ryu itself has the history claimed.

My feeling is that Takeda was taught a range of things from his father, which may have included a degree of unarmed concepts and principles, as well as studying Ono-ha Itto Ryu when he was young. From there he travelled around, and was exposed to a great number of other arts. With his natural talent and understanding (he was said to be able to watch a technique once, and immediately understand it almost completely), combined with the varied experiences he had, Takeda began teaching what he had learnt, and what he had developed out of it. Later it was given the name Daito Ryu. The biggest influences, though, appear to be the swordsmanship training, which also explains the emphasis in Aikido, as the footwork is very similar to swordsmanship, and the dominant striking attack resembles a sword attack to a great degree. I also feel that exposure to a range of other arts in the area contributed, such as branches of Asayama Ichiden Ryu Taijutsu, which is from the same area, and shares a number of similarities with Daito Ryu, particularly at the early levels (a high emphasis on te-hodoki, for instance, and similar reiho, as well as dealing primarily with grabbing attacks to the arms/wrists). Daito Ryu is more circular, and has a different "entering" feel, but the similarities are certainly there.

Hope that made some sense.
 

chrispillertkd

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Hey Chris,

Firstly, I want to say that I personally feel that Takeda Sensei was a singularly gifted martial artist, on a huge number of levels. Secondly, it's very obvious that he had quite a bit of training in a few things, so I don't feel that Daito Ryu was just created out of scratch. I feel that there is a very solid basis to the art, and it's one that I'm quite fond of, really.

Oh, no, your post didn't come off that way at all. Daito Ryu is something I've had an arm chair interest in for a while, myself. I am aware of the controversy surrounding its history and am a bit of a sceptic as to its claims of antiquity. That being said, I'd love it if there was a dojo or study group within driving distance of where I am located. I'd love to train in it some time.

When it comes to Sokaku's training, what is unquestioned is that he was trained in Ono-ha Itto Ryu Kenjutsu, and probably/possibly Hozoin Ryu Sojutsu. His family background included members who were known to be skilled with such weapons on both sides, and things like the Itto Ryu are uncontested from everything I've seen. Additionally, he is said to have travelled quite a bit, visiting and training at a number of dojo (there are claims of Jikishinkage Ryu, but they are unverified). Then we have his early training under his father, who was, amongst other things, ranked as a Sumotori at one time.

I was aware of his training in Ono-ha Itto Ryu and that his father knew sumo, but not that there were claims about Hozoin Ryu or Jikishinkage Ryu. I'd be interested in knowing if anyone sees any influences from these styles on Sokaku's techniques. Do you know if Daito Ryu includes spear techniques in its syllabus?

So I'm not in any doubt about Takeda's training being serious and in-depth, what I question is the idea that Daito Ryu itself, an extensive, unarmoured unarmed-heavy system, dates from when it is claimed to (the late 12th Century, stemming from Minamoto Yoshitsune, who is pretty much a romantic hero for Japanese martial arts).

Wait, are you saying Daito Ryu claims to be from Yoshitsune, or just from the 12th century? I mean, being taught kenjutsu by Sojobo is pretty impressive and all :) but I thought I had read that Daito Ryu claims to go back even further than that (A.D. 900, perhaps?).

Systems like that are really the product of peacetime, and the late 12th Century was the time of the Genpei Wars (of which the Minamoto clan was a large part), which was followed by the Ashikaga period (fairly turbulent), which moved into the Sengoku Jidai (period of warring states), before getting to the Edo period from the beginning of the 17th Century as the first real time of extended peace. Arts predating this time tend to be weaponry dominant, and although they may have some unarmed, it would tend to be less "developed" in most cases. They would also have far smaller curriculums, not the literally thousands of techniques that Daito Ryu claims.

This is one of the main reasons why I am more than a bit sceptical about Daito Ryu's official history. It would certainly be unique amongst koryu, as far as my limited understanding goes, if it was in fact that old.

When we look at the structure of what a Ryu is as well, we get some things that are different from Ryu to Ryu, but some things that are fairly consistent. And one of those consistencies is that the art (Ryu) is passed down in a systematised form, allowing the art to be reliably transmitted. When we then turn back to Daito Ryu, Takeda himself didn't teach Daito Ryu as a systematised art, the formalisation and structure was introduced largely by his son, who also reduced a lot of the weaponry work (giving Ono-ha Itto Ryu it's emphasis again). So that's another gap in the idea that Daito Ryu itself has the history claimed.

Given the Japanese predeliction for leaving a paper trail when it comes to things like this, do you know if Sokaku had licenses from anyone specifically in Daito Ryu (as opposed to Ono-ha Itto Ryu)?

My feeling is that Takeda was taught a range of things from his father, which may have included a degree of unarmed concepts and principles, as well as studying Ono-ha Itto Ryu when he was young. From there he travelled around, and was exposed to a great number of other arts. With his natural talent and understanding (he was said to be able to watch a technique once, and immediately understand it almost completely), combined with the varied experiences he had, Takeda began teaching what he had learnt, and what he had developed out of it. Later it was given the name Daito Ryu. The biggest influences, though, appear to be the swordsmanship training, which also explains the emphasis in Aikido, as the footwork is very similar to swordsmanship, and the dominant striking attack resembles a sword attack to a great degree. I also feel that exposure to a range of other arts in the area contributed, such as branches of Asayama Ichiden Ryu Taijutsu, which is from the same area, and shares a number of similarities with Daito Ryu, particularly at the early levels (a high emphasis on te-hodoki, for instance, and similar reiho, as well as dealing primarily with grabbing attacks to the arms/wrists). Daito Ryu is more circular, and has a different "entering" feel, but the similarities are certainly there.

Hope that made some sense.

Interesting, thanks. I don't know much about sumo but I'd be very interested in seeing how it relates to Daito Ryu, both philosophically and technically. The link to swordsmanship I have seen. There is video of Katsuyuki Kondo showing the relationship between kenjutsu and jujutsu which is pretty interesting, as well as aikido techniques being described as "cut down with your hands as if with a sword" by Rinjiro Shirata. But going from a sword-based system to an unarmed system using sword strategy is impressive, to say the least. You have to have an amazing insight on things to see more than a basic connection, IMNSHO.

Pax,

Chris
 
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