asian polearms reinforced

JowGaWolf

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Sure. There are basements, which as I recall were mostly used for animals. They horses and such would then need to be brought out into the courtyard. Lots of room there. The wheelhouse is also much lower.

View attachment 23393

But let's be honest here. This is really you, as usual, just being unwilling to admit that you could be wrong, and attempting to move the goalposts and change the subject.
Definitely some movement on the goalposts lol.
 

BrendanF

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And i just found this Japanese weapon which had external re enforcement.

1024px-Torimono_sandogu_%28tools_for_capturing_criminals%29.jpg


That one is apparntly called a tsukubō. That would be a pole arm proper. No idea what they are used for.

The one on the left is the tsukubo. The names of them describe their functions - tsukubo means 'push pole' and is designed to keep rowdy antagonist at a distance. The middle implement is called sode garami or 'sleeve entangler'. The one to the right is sasumata or 'spear fork'. They were implements used by feudal police and fire fighters, to restrain and detain people and tear down burning structures.
 

jobo

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Sure. There are basements, which as I recall were mostly used for animals. They horses and such would then need to be brought out into the courtyard. Lots of room there. The wheelhouse is also much lower.

View attachment 23393

But let's be honest here. This is really you, as usual, just being unwilling to admit that you could be wrong, and attempting to move the goalposts and change the subject.
so you can flood the castle then? that seems to be a contradiiction to your earlier statment that it was impossible.

if its worth the trouble of doing so is a different issue
 

jobo

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So I took a look at some flooded castles.
1. The attackers would have to build a dam that can hold tons of water without the water over flowing over top or around the sides. This alone is a major project. No army is going to use the resources to flood a castle like the one below. I'm even willing to bet that they didn't have the technology ot create such dams like that.
There is also a secondary problem. Say the attacking army does build a dam and does flood the area and it looks like the photo below. How would they attack? Even after the water goes down, there would be mud all over the place. There's no way to set up artillery in this mess.
90
so how has that castle flooded with out a major modern civil engoneeribg project? all youve done by posting that pic, is show it doesnt require, 21 century engineeribg to cause a flood of a castle

il give you a clue, floods happen when the water is ariving faster than it is leaving, you dont have to hold back the total extent of the water, that would take some doing, rather just reduce its flow marginally , so it starts to back up

its common here for floods to happen as there is a bend in the river or or a bridge that marginaly obstructs the flow

you can test this yourself, by running your kitchen tap full and then droping a few peas in to the sink hole and the sink will slowly start to fill, ergo a flood, i know this as iive just had to remove three peas from my sink hole
 
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JowGaWolf

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The one on the left is the tsukubo. The names of them describe their functions - tsukubo means 'push pole' and is designed to keep rowdy antagonist at a distance. The middle implement is called sode garami or 'sleeve entangler'. The one to the right is sasumata or 'spear fork'. They were implements used by feudal police and fire fighters, to restrain and detain people and tear down burning structures.
mystery solved
 

JowGaWolf

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so you can flood the castle then? that seems to be a contradiiction to your earlier statment that it was impossible.

if its worth the trouble of doing so is a different issue
No there's a big difference between a building a dam to flood the area like you were saying and weather events. You were talking about having soldiers build a damn to flood the area and that's not feasible because of the size that it would have to be to accomplish that. The tech wasn't there and the knowledge wasn't their. The pictures of flooded castles that I saw were all from weather events. All bets are off when it comes to weather. As of date the only way man can reproduce such flood waters is to build a massive dam and then to release the water. None of which were going to happen during that time.

So I'm still sticking with my thoughts on that one. The only way I would change my mind on that one is if you showed some documentation of someone actually doing it during that time period
 

JowGaWolf

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so how has that castle flooded with out a major modern civil engoneeribg project?
This is from natural flooding, when it rains a lot. It has nothing to do with dams. Or what men have built. Men didn't cause this type of flooding.
 

JowGaWolf

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so how has that castle flooded with out a major modern civil engoneeribg project? all youve done by posting that pic, is show it doesnt require, 21 century engineeribg to cause a flood of a castle

il give you a clue, floods happen when the water is ariving faster than it is leaving, you dont have to hold back the total extent of the water, that would take some doing, rather just reduce its flow marginally , so it starts to back up

its common here for floods to happen as there is a bend in the river or or a bridge that marginaly obstructs the flow

you can test this yourself, by running your kitchen tap full and then droping a few peas in to the sink hole and the sink will slowly start to fill, ergo a flood, i know this as iive just had to remove three peas from my sink hole
Yep and none of what you stated mention building a dam
 

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The one on the left is the tsukubo. The names of them describe their functions - tsukubo means 'push pole' and is designed to keep rowdy antagonist at a distance. The middle implement is called sode garami or 'sleeve entangler'. The one to the right is sasumata or 'spear fork'. They were implements used by feudal police and fire fighters, to restrain and detain people and tear down burning structures.
So those weapons were used to catch criminals. That's nuts seems like that would be a lot of work. I'm assuming it's for criminals who want to fight back. Sort of like how police show up on the scene only to have the person on the scene try to fight them back.

Then the one to entangle clothing. That's an interesting one.

So out of all my guesses. I was only correct about preventing others from grabbing the pole. I definitely enjoyed trying to guess it's use. There used to be a game show that something similar. The host would present an item and people would have to guess what it was and how it was used.
 

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So I took a look at some flooded castles.
1. The attackers would have to build a dam that can hold tons of water without the water over flowing over top or around the sides. This alone is a major project. No army is going to use the resources to flood a castle like the one below. I'm even willing to bet that they didn't have the technology ot create such dams like that.
There is also a secondary problem. Say the attacking army does build a dam and does flood the area and it looks like the photo below. How would they attack? Even after the water goes down, there would be mud all over the place. There's no way to set up artillery in this mess.

Agreed. There's another obstacle to damming the river that hasn't yet been mentioned. The terrain around Warwick is quite flat. Which means even if you plunked an 80' high dam into the river, it wouldn't matter. Because the water would simply go around the dam. You need to build your imaginary dam at a point which features elevations in the land on both sides of the river.

Google Maps

This is a topographical map of the area. You can't see Warwick because it's too small. Warwick is SE from Birmingham, pretty close to Daventry. Note the complete lack of significant elevation changes. There is literally no place where you could build a dam without the water simply flowing around it. You'd only be able to raise the water levels by inches.
 

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You guys are awesome.



The one on the left is the tsukubo. The names of them describe their functions - tsukubo means 'push pole' and is designed to keep rowdy antagonist at a distance. The middle implement is called sode garami or 'sleeve entangler'. The one to the right is sasumata or 'spear fork'. They were implements used by feudal police and fire fighters, to restrain and detain people and tear down burning structures.

Europe did that too. This is a man catcher. Thrust it out at their neck, and the hinged pieces let it surround their neck. After that, resistance would result in those spikes doing unpleasant things to ones anatomy.

1353463488-0.jpg
 

Tez3

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We have three castles (Richmond, Middleham and Castle Bolton) within ten miles of us, none of them could be flooded by any means.
 

Dirty Dog

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so you can flood the castle then? that seems to be a contradiiction to your earlier statment that it was impossible.

if its worth the trouble of doing so is a different issue

No, you cannot. Not unless you can alter the topography. What I said was 'to flood it, you'd have t raise the water level by X amount'. Doing so, in the particular place being used as an example, would be impossible using 15th century technology, and insanely difficult using 21st century technology.
But it's well known that you're not one to let a little reality interfere with your opinions.
 

JowGaWolf

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The terrain around Warwick is quite flat. Which means even if you plunked an 80' high dam into the river, it wouldn't matter. Because the water would simply go around the dam. You need to build your imaginary dam at a point which features elevations in the land on both sides of the river.

Jobo keeps saying that it's possible that they would have been able to flood the area but he has yet to show how they would have done it, or how it would have been able to be accomplished during that time period while keeping a castle under siege
 

JowGaWolf

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Not unless you can alter the topography.
The only feasible way to flood the castle is to change the topography. It would be like building a lake so that Warrick sits in the middle of it.
 

jobo

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No, you cannot. Not unless you can alter the topography. What I said was 'to flood it, you'd have t raise the water level by X amount'. Doing so, in the particular place being used as an example, would be impossible using 15th century technology, and insanely difficult using 21st century technology.
But it's well known that you're not one to let a little reality interfere with your opinions.
if you raise the level of the water 6 ft on one bank they you raise 6 ft on the other bank, in which case both directions are,down hill
 

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if you raise the level of the water 6 ft on one bank they you raise 6 ft on the other bank, in which case both directions are,down hill

I don't think you're stupid enough to really believe this. But one more time, just on the off chance that I'm wrong about you.
The water will never raise 6', let along the ~30' that would be needed to flood the castle. Because the land on the SE side of the river is lower than the castle. It will overflow its banks on the side of the river away from the castle, and drain out into the flood plain. Which is a HUGE area. And because there's no place to build a dam that would cause even a 6' increase. If you managed to raise the level a few inches, it would run off away from the castle. And around your silly dam.
 

JowGaWolf

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I don't think you're stupid enough to really believe this. But one more time, just on the off chance that I'm wrong about you.
The water will never raise 6', let along the ~30' that would be needed to flood the castle. Because the land on the SE side of the river is lower than the castle. It will overflow its banks on the side of the river away from the castle, and drain out into the flood plain. Which is a HUGE area. And because there's no place to build a dam that would cause even a 6' increase. If you managed to raise the level a few inches, it would run off away from the castle. And around your silly dam.
Only way to get water that high is to keep it in. It's just not possible. The land doesn't allow it.
 

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I don't think you're stupid enough to really believe this. But one more time, just on the off chance that I'm wrong about you.
The water will never raise 6', let along the ~30' that would be needed to flood the castle. Because the land on the SE side of the river is lower than the castle. It will overflow its banks on the side of the river away from the castle, and drain out into the flood plain. Which is a HUGE area. And because there's no place to build a dam that would cause even a 6' increase. If you managed to raise the level a few inches, it would run off away from the castle. And around your silly dam.
But...but...but...just maybe if a guy got a really big bucket...
 

jobo

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I don't think you're stupid enough to really believe this. But one more time, just on the off chance that I'm wrong about you.
The water will never raise 6', let along the ~30' that would be needed to flood the castle. Because the land on the SE side of the river is lower than the castle. It will overflow its banks on the side of the river away from the castle, and drain out into the flood plain. Which is a HUGE area. And because there's no place to build a dam that would cause even a 6' increase. If you managed to raise the level a few inches, it would run off away from the castle. And around your silly dam.
no, the river doesnt know which side the slope is on, iit will over flow both banks equally,and will over flow in both directions , as the land on the castle side is flatish it will go on to flow in that direction as well,
 
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