arrogant and inexperience

[Cruentus]

I can agree that whether you trained in the 60's, 70's, 80's, or 90's, and whether you trained in America, or the Philippines, we can all learn from each other. I also agree with you, then, that we shouldn't invalidate what each person has accomplished.

I am glad we had this discussion, Kuntawman, and that we were able to work this out! :asian:

 

[ARNIS PRINCESS]

Originally posted by norshadow1
Gee Whiz Arnis Princess,

The matter does need to be closed. Datu Hartman and Dr. Barber will take care it without our help, I am sure.


Lamont

Lamont-

You missed my point. Is it Dr. Barber's job to point out what he feels are inconsistencies in everybody's organizations/schools/curriculums?

BTW, don't you have a curriculum area entitled "kuntao" in the WMAA? Are you aware of the fact that before the WMAA was formed Datu Hartman used the the organizatiion names of "Arnis de Mano - Arnis Kuntao" and later he used "Arnis de Mano - Kuntao Sikaran". If everyone judged his system name as the totality of what he taught and represented could there not be a misunderstanding involving "kuntao"?

Dr. Barber was the one who opened the door on this point. Then, when Mr. Hartman spoke out to clarify the situation, Dr. Barber decided there was no need to take this "diversion" any further. If it was a diversion, then why did Dr. Barber introduce the subject at all? You can't make a statement, then prevent people from stating their counterpoint. The door swings both ways.

I have attended Mr. Hartman's seminars in the past, although I don't get to train as often as I would like. I felt Dr. Barber was unfair with his statements which is why I replied, just as you were defending your friend from what you felt you unfair statements in your opinion.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Pappy Geo
Sidebar here for Dan,

I was watching with Kelly a 1984 video yesterday called "T-Town battle of the black belts" (T for Tacoma). There was this thin young guy with lots of hair I mean lots of hair kicking butt in the ring. I said to Kelly whoever that is, is a real firecracker! He laughs and said that is Dan! No way! Yep everybody's changes! Laura Worden was only about 22, she would have been a candidate for the show on TV "are you hot", really foxy! ( she is still good looking but a lady now). She too was kicking butt! Kelly was the Referee tall, skinny not even 30 yet.

Priceless treasures from nearly 20 years ago! Is it time to start a Modern Arnis historical museum or library of old pictures and videos of the Professor and the senior students?, bonding everyone's common respect for the art. Maybe the could be reproduced and sold to support the cost of such library.

Anyway I got a real kick out of it!

Dan Anderson Had Hair? Wow thos Pictures really must have been old. :rofl:

Sorry Dan, I could not resist.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I can see where there could be confusion.

As Paul's signature states, "No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously..."

Or to miss-interpret your intentions or to read something into nothing. Hence the miss reading the business cards. Why would anyone have there own organization when Remy was alive without his direct approval. Yes Tim lead the Can AM chapter of the IMAF. I see this as a chapter of a larger organization. Not an organization itself.

I believe that Tim knew of the issue of some of the instructors in Michigan (* None I was directly affiliated with *) joining another organization of Arnis or Modern Arnis. Yet, they were then not accepted or welcomed around Remy Presas like they were before. So I do not think that Tim would have risked being ignored or cast out by creating his own organization.

Yes, near the end of GM Presas life Tim talked to Remy and told him he could not continue with the existing IMAF, and he left and formed the WMAA which is an organization not a chapter or a curriculum.

So, I can see where the confusion could have happened, yet I do not think it would have passed a deep pass or inspection if anyone had bothered to look deep into the issue. Datu Hartman would not have risked losing his teacher and someone he had a very personal relationship with.

Just my opinion. Take it leave it. No Big Deal

:asian:

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
Dan Anderson Had Hair? Wow those Pictures really must have been old. :rofl:

Sorry Dan, I could not resist.

Rikki (don't lose that number),
I still have hair. What I use to have on my head has migrated to my chest. It's warmer there.

Dan
:rofl:

 

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by ARNIS PRINCESS
Lamont-

You missed my point. Is it Dr. Barber's job to point out what he feels are inconsistencies in everybody's organizations/schools/curriculums?

Dr. Barber was the one who opened the door on this point. Then, when Mr. Hartman spoke out to clarify the situation, Dr. Barber decided there was no need to take this "diversion" any further. If it was a diversion, then why did Dr. Barber introduce the subject at all? You can't make a statement, then prevent people from stating their counterpoint. The door swings both ways.

I have attended Mr. Hartman's seminars in the past, although I don't get to train as often as I would like. I felt Dr. Barber was unfair with his statements which is why I replied, just as you were defending your friend from what you felt you unfair statements in your opinion.

Hello Arnis Princess and Lamont,

Thank you for your observations and comments, however the matter is closed! IF Tim wants to discuss it on his return to Buffalo next week, he has my phone number, he will call me.

I did acknowlege his Tim's comments, however, his comments do not in any way invalidate the impression that was created by his usage of logos and seveal titles. He knows what what he registered as business names, I know how it all appeared to me.

Tim has some valid points as do I, therefore if the discussion is to continue, he and I will do it as we have since 1987 - one calls the other to clear the air! I doubt that the call is necessary, but it is his choice to make. I have nothing more to say about the matter to anyone else!

Ms. Arnis Princess, also wrote:

"And speaking of your symposium, you have already lost the Presas Family, Kelly Worden and Dan McConnell. Are you sure you want to risk losing another instructor due to your caustic remarks? I, myself, was looking forward to seeing Datu Worden and the Presas family. I am definitely rethinking my decision to attend the event."

Please be advised, that I did not lose anyone! Those people choose to do something different on the weekend of July 11, 12
& 13 of this year. Two of the three provided us with their reasoning for making those choices. I accept and acknowledge their decisions. I have publicly wished them all well. Your implication does not appear to be valid based on the public information provided and I refuse to speculate on anything with regard to their decisions.

If you choose not to attend the Symposium, so be it. That is your decision to make. The planning goes forward and the Symposium will be held, so long as there are at least three instructors ready to work. I have solid committments from four instructors that they will be there regardless of the number of people signed up. All four have promised that they will have some students there as well.

As of today there are 8 pre-paid deposits and 2 paid in full participants. The discussions with possible venders are on going and should be completed within the month. I will bring at least one (1) prototype of each wooden training sword/bolo that one vendor is making specificly for the Symposium to the WMAA Camp in May for people to review. The Symposium is on!

If you choose not to attend, please have a good, peaceful and relaxing weekend.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

 

[norshadow1]

Originally posted by Pappy Geo
Quoted by Paul:

"Demetrio had said to me over the phone? He had told me to not worry about all the "successorship" and "Grandmaster" stuff. We are all successors, for we all hold modern arnis in our hearts."

That about sums up MARRPIO'S ideology the way I understand it from them also. They believe there is/was only one Grandmaster and that was Remy Sr.

Since the professor always projected Modern Arnis as the "Art within your Art" how can there be a pure Modern Arnis? With the Professor gone, the art dilutes as he was the evolutionist. When you adapted the art to your present foundation a new flavor evolved. Every Senior has a different flavor of Modern Arnis, are any more correct than the other? Just evolved differently to adapt to your foundation, your physical body limitations, how you were encouraged to develop by the Professor.

It appears Modern Arnis has blended differently across the world, was it ever a "pure" system even when the Professor was alive? I guarantee you, every Datu and Sr, will do the forms and practice the system differently from each other.

Acknowledging what I have just discussed why not accept that we all may be a little different in our interpretation of modern Arnis but we are still in the same family? Share like mature family members not bicker like young siblings.

Pappy Geo

Dear Pappy Geo,

I waited to respond to your post because I wanted to carefully consider everything that you wrote. I have just one disagreement with your stated positions. I am refering to your
assertion that:

"Since the professor always projected Modern Arnis as the "Art within your Art" how can there be a pure Modern Arnis? With the Professor gone, the art dilutes as he was the evolutionist."

My take on this is that 1. Professor Presas was the Founder 2. He built the art around a blending of Crossada, Palis Palis, Balintawak, Shotokan Karate and Judo. (See his 1974 pubication on Modern Arnis.) Therefore Modern Arnis was Never a 'pure' art, it was from the very begining an eccelctic creation suited to his needs and experiences.

With the above in mind, I submit that Modern Arnis can not become a "diluted" art because it was built on the conceptual framework of the art within your art principles. Without these principles there would not be a Modern Arnis as we know it.

There are some very solid adaptations of Modern Arnis that follows the "art within your art" concept, although people have added their own, not Professor's combinations to achieve their personal renderings. The "evolutionists" are us, not the founder!

The real test of the art is in the player, not particularly which direction that one took. The "dilution" is in the individual, not the system or direction. I have seen several very strong and exciting versions of Modern Arnis and I have seen several people who are commited to a strict replication of what Professor taught, including mimicking has accent and jokes! That to me is "dilution"!
It is attmpting to establish a 'tradition based' art inspite of what Professor often said he wanted and definately in contrast to his own actions.

Professor searched out new ideas. He added new innovation to the art. He sought to learn more about Modern Arnis, because it was a work in progress for him. I first saw Professor in 1992 and last saw him in 1999. His art was evolving during that time, therefore, if I follow his lead, I/we should be adding to the art as we know and use it. We should not be trying to "preserve" it in a time capsuale.

"Acknowledging what I have just discussed why not accept that we all may be a little different in our interpretation of modern Arnis but we are still in the same family? Share like mature family members not bicker like young siblings."

I do not have a problem acknowledging what you have posted, nor am I opposed to people having different interpretations regarding the art. In fact I enjoy those differences. The bickering could be stopped almost immediately if the current organization and group leaders would step up, speak out and demonstrate the cooperation that you obviously want to see. I agree with you on that point. So why don't we leave Jeff Delaney and Lisa McManus alone? If they want to make asses of themselves with ridiculous promotions and grand titles, let them! Instead of trying to berate someone who is sponsoring an event that could and should benefit ALL of Modern Arnis, support the man's efforts, even if you (generalized and collective meaning) can't or won't attend.

I believe that attending events sponsored on the East Coast or West Coast or Mid-West or Southeast or Southwest is what we should be doing, based on time, cost, opportunity and travel considerations. We can't go to everything, but we all can probably get to something. We need to put the art and personal growth ahead of organizational affiliations and restrictive instructor loyality - resembling cultish behavior. In order to achieve true cooperative ventures, some egos have to be put aside! I have noticed that at least one member of this forum is going to attend the WMAA Camp, although he is not a member of that organization. It is true that he will be there in part to promote an event, but that could have done by sending a student with flyers.

I also know that he is passing on a Kenpo event, announced in
July 2002, regarding succession being held in Chicago the very same weekend, because we were planning to go there together. I will maintain those plans, but I also understand why he had to change his plans so that he could be supportive of the WMAA Camp.

It is easy to say that we need cooperation, it is much more difficult to see it in action. It is easy to say what people should be doing to achieve cooperation, but in truth, we have to put that into practice as individuals, one by one, because it is the right thing to do, for the art and the 'family'. I don't expect to see you on the East Coast on July 11, 12 & 13, because your instructor is hosting the Presas Family that same weekend; however it would be great to see you mentioning the East Coast event in a positive manner. There is certinly no conflict between the two events given the 3500 miles of seperation.

That is my take on a limited disagreement and a "HUGE" amount of agreement, with what you posted.

Lamont

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by thekuntawman
i notice that people who have just a little experience, think they know a lot because they study with master so and so, and challenge even a filipino on the tagalog language! they believe that since they dont see your ad in the magazine you dont know much, and since you dont go around doing seminars and giving out certificates you are not that good. and they argue everything you say that they dont know much about, so you must not know what your talking about.

i am not talking about how people treat me, i am talking about how you guys treat remy presas kids.

i saw them in person, and i can tell you, the skill of those "children" is better than what i seen most of the "updated" modern arnis people have. you think you have to study with someone forever to stay good? TMS--too much seminar. your knowledge is only updated in your training, not re-certificate every year. the son of remy presas can show you a thing, if anything, how to look better swinging your sticks. so what if he doesnt know the new method of tapi tapi. is there art no longer presas style arnis? just because you didnt see tham at any of these seminars?

i think i am illiterate now. i never went back to the 8th grade in more than 20 years. that's bs.

so maybe they didnt study from there dad when you see them. when i teach my daughter and my brother, i do it at home. my brother is far ahead of my students with 2 years experience. i can bet money, that the presas kids got more than 3,4 seminars a year, mr know it all. now maybe he evolve to one direction, and they went another direction, but i am sure mr presas did not leave his kids with poor skills. and so what if the teaching is not the same what you got in those seminars, maybe you might like what they have to show that is new to you. but instead you insult them because you didnt know remy presas kids new arnis at all.

it is also disrepect for the students to show disresepct to the teachers children. do you think he would be pleased with you?

arrogance. no respect. green young lions.

in many filipino styles, and maybe you dont know this from watching video and going to seminar and reading websites, you would have to call presas juinior, gran master presas, like it or not. what do they have to do to get some respect, sell you a black belt certificate?

Dear thekuntawman ,

I am still wondering if I was one of the ones you were commenting about being arrogant and inexperinced and I think thereby rude. The last being my words.

Please, let me know, either here or through PM.
I see you have not been on for about a week at this tme of the post. I hope it finds you in good health and you and yours well.

Yet if have insulted or perceived to insult then I want to know.
:asian: