Are there examples of large stocky guys like me pulling off acrobatic kicks?

[drop bear]

Just understood what you mean by kicking the knees out. I wasn't pointing kicking the knees out. I was pointing the kick has no root. I don't have to kick your knees out. I could punch you in mid air, I could move forward and bump you, I could do a lot of things while you are in the air spinning around. it's not a difficult kick to deal with. If you spin to your right then the kick will land on my right. If you spin to the left the kick will land on my left. The only thing I would need to do is move to the center of your rotation and interfere with you being able to land. You are suspended in the air so it's not like you are going to dodge anything

If you were to fall on concrete the same way that some of the guys in the video fell, then the fight would be over

And yet with all your theoretical defences. The kick still knocks people out.

Why do you think that is?

 

[Lameman]

Because anyone can be caught off guard.

 

[Ironbear24]

So you are more comfortable doing a technique you have actually practiced than one you have tried to do for a day?

Would you be doing less basics in favor of training this kick?

(I just really hate people believing they have to settle for being mediocre. You choose that)

It's a combination of things. These kind of kicks are not involved in kenpo karate at all, nor Judo nor Escrima. And those are the three styles taught here. So it would be good for me to practice them in the grand scheme of me expanding as a martial artist by learning other styles, however when it comes to becoming better at what is being taught in the dojo, it will do little to nothing.

The mentality here is similar to what kung fu Wang said in the last. That it's better to go for quality vs quantity, it is better for me to be incredible at some effective tools vs be just alright at a thousand of them.

I do appreciate your posts though and always look forward to reading what you have to say.

 

[drop bear]

It's a combination of things. These kind of kicks are not involved in kenpo karate at all, nor Judo nor Escrima. And those are the three styles taught here. So it would be good for me to practice them in the grand scheme of me expanding as a martial artist by learning other styles, however when it comes to becoming better at what is being taught in the dojo, it will do little to nothing.

The mentality here is similar to what kung fu Wang said in the last. That it's better to go for quality vs quantity, it is better for me to be incredible at some effective tools vs be just alright at a thousand of them.

I do appreciate your posts though and always look forward to reading what you have to say.

 

[Ironbear24]

Ok how is this. When I see him again next time, I will ask him help on my vertical jump? After all that seems to be the problem as to why I can't do it, i can't get high enough on the air.

 

[crazydiamond]

Not going to work well with me at 255lbs and my age. Also fancy or high kicks not really part of my system. But then again my Thai kicks smash the bag and rattle the rafters- thats good enough for me.

 

[JowGaWolf]

And yet with all your theoretical defences. The kick still knocks people out.

Why do you think that is?

I never said those kicks couldn't knock someone out.

You really don't understand kicks

1. The power of a circular kick is at the end of the kick and not at the center of it's rotation
2. You have no root when you are in the air, therefore it's easy to move you or push you in a way that interferes with your ability to execute your fancy movement.
3. Those fancy spinning kicks are long range kicks. The closer I am to you the better off I'll be. The reason is because of #1

I haven't looked at those videos that you posted but I can tell you just from understanding how kicks work that those people were either knocked out because they stay still within range of the kick or they were moving backwards. I can also say with confidence that none of the people who were knocked out by a fancy spinning kick were knocked out while inside the range of those kicks (inside range is between halfway up the shin and thigh. All of those who were knocked out were outside of that range.

Defense on circular kicks:
These guys are showing the same thing I'm saying

Here's some more theory

Here's some more theory.

 

[drop bear]

I never said those kicks couldn't knock someone out.

You really don't understand kicks

1. The power of a circular kick is at the end of the kick and not at the center of it's rotation
2. You have no root when you are in the air, therefore it's easy to move you or push you in a way that interferes with your ability to execute your fancy movement.
3. Those fancy spinning kicks are long range kicks. The closer I am to you the better off I'll be. The reason is because of #1

I haven't looked at those videos that you posted but I can tell you just from understanding how kicks work that those people were either knocked out because they stay still within range of the kick or they were moving backwards. I can also say with confidence that none of the people who were knocked out by a fancy spinning kick were knocked out while inside the range of those kicks (inside range is between halfway up the shin and thigh. All of those who were knocked out were outside of that range.

Defense on circular kicks:
These guys are showing the same thing I'm saying

Here's some more theory

Here's some more theory.

Ok.
Any kick or punch has a laundry list of ways to defend it.

Using that list is not really applicable when discussing the viability of that move. Because there is a difference between discussing something and actually doing something.

Do you think the people receiving that kick did not know how to defend it?

 

[MAfreak]

(referred to page 1 of this discussion: )
guys, "tornado kicks" are 360. 540 is, when you land it on your kicking foot. which won't happen when you hit something, like an opponent, before landing. so 540, 720 etc. is acrobatics while 360 tornado or hook kick knocked people out even in mma (in tkd with bad guard its more common and no surprise). so they are the coolest kicks which can be practical with a bit of luck, but high risk.

 

[drop bear]

Ok how is this. When I see him again next time, I will ask him help on my vertical jump? After all that seems to be the problem as to why I can't do it, i can't get high enough on the air.

Good choice. Having a strong vertical jump means you need a strong squat. This allows you to lift and move with your legs and hips and not your back.

And that improves your basic structure.

 

[Lameman]

They are not high risk if used right at the right time. For argument, say it works 2% of the time. If you only use it when it works, then it works 100% of the time. If you understand the weaknesses and you only use it when your opponant either can't or won't defend themselves. Same as any other attack. First set 'em up, then knock 'em down.

 

[WaterGal]

I haven't looked at those videos that you posted but I can tell you just from understanding how kicks work that those people were either knocked out because they stay still within range of the kick or they were moving backwards. I can also say with confidence that none of the people who were knocked out by a fancy spinning kick were knocked out while inside the range of those kicks (inside range is between halfway up the shin and thigh. All of those who were knocked out were outside of that range.

That's true of all striking with any technique, though. You can only hurt your opponent if you use a technique whose range matches the distance you are from your opponent. For example, I feel like I can say with confidence that no one who's been knocked out by an uppercut was standing 5 feet away from their opponent at the time it was thrown, because that's outside of the range of an uppercut.

 

[WaterGal]

Ok how is this. When I see him again next time, I will ask him help on my vertical jump? After all that seems to be the problem as to why I can't do it, i can't get high enough on the air.

Yeah, that sounds like a good idea. If you can't get much aerial lift, you're going to have a hard time doing something like a 540 kick.

I do have a very simple drill you can try that may help you. What you do is to just jump up with both feet and spin around in the air. See how far you can turn and still come down in a good stance (no point in doing a cool spin kick and then falling on your ***). You'll probably be able to do at least 180 right away, maybe even 360. Keep practicing and try to spin farther each time.

 

[Ironbear24]

Yeah, that sounds like a good idea. If you can't get much aerial lift, you're going to have a hard time doing something like a 540 kick.

I do have a very simple drill you can try that may help you. What you do is to just jump up with both feet and spin around in the air. See how far you can turn and still come down in a good stance (no point in doing a cool spin kick and then falling on your ***). You'll probably be able to do at least 180 right away, maybe even 360. Keep practicing and try to spin farther each time.

Thanks. It will look a bit silly but oh well, if it helps it is worth doing it.

 

[Dirty Dog]

They are not high risk if used right at the right time. For argument, say it works 2% of the time. If you only use it when it works, then it works 100% of the time. If you understand the weaknesses and you only use it when your opponant either can't or won't defend themselves. Same as any other attack. First set 'em up, then knock 'em down.

More realistically, these kicks can only be ATTEMPTED less than 1% of the time. And of those, I'd be shocked if more than 1% actually landed. In other words... stick with more practical applications.

 

[drop bear]

They are not high risk if used right at the right time. For argument, say it works 2% of the time. If you only use it when it works, then it works 100% of the time. If you understand the weaknesses and you only use it when your opponant either can't or won't defend themselves. Same as any other attack. First set 'em up, then knock 'em down.

Ok. People think it is one kick. And it is not.

If i stand there and throw a 540 i will get countered and bashed.

The same as if i throw a hook punch.

This is because it is one technique.

But if i move and you dont know if it is a kick punch knee or elbow. And you dont know when it is coming. You have to see that move commit to a defence and risk getting hit if i have somehow out thought you.

What most people do is get the hell out of the way. Especially if you are fighting for sheep stations and that move could realistically cripple you.

So then you can throw that move with relative saftey as the may evade but are then are not in a position to counter.

People are being too linear with this concept.

 

[Phobius]

Correction, you don't train a technique to get better balance and power. Does not mean anything about what other people do..plenty people train techniques with that purpose, and it works fine

Actually, you already have the balance and strength to do a technique properly before you do it. Otherwise you will compensate by moving incorrectly thus risking injury. Either that or you fail the technique altogether thus not knowing if you do it correctly.

So people do not train techniques unless ready for it if they care about remaining strong and we'll in body.

Doing a spinning kick without having proper balance could perhaps damage your knees when landing. Or strength failing causing incomplete rotation and with it damage to ankles.

I have not heard many true martial artists training a technique they can't do, over and over. Usually it is broken down to pieces and trained until they are so tired of it and bored that doing the full technique is not only easy but almost impossible to resist.

 

[Azulx]

@Ironbear24 There is a difference between the 360 kick and the 540 kick. I just recently began to execute the 540 kick. We call the 360 kick a "butterfly" kick, but it is commonly known as the tornado kick. The 540 kick is call the "volley" kick. I am not ready to try the 540 in sparring yet, because it takes too much time for me complete the technique. The 540 is more dangerous than the 360, because you land on the foot you kick with. The 360 I do occasionally during sparring. How I set it up is simple. If I throw a round house kick that misses or gets redirected , use the momentum to spin and throw the 360 kick. I will also throw an inverted crescent kick, miss, and use the momentum to spin and use the 360.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I haven't looked at those videos that you posted but I can tell you just from understanding how kicks work that those people were either knocked out because they stay still within range of the kick or they were moving backwards. I can also say with confidence that none of the people who were knocked out by a fancy spinning kick were knocked out while inside the range of those kicks (inside range is between halfway up the shin and thigh. All of those who were knocked out were outside of that range

I'm not a huge fan of spinning techniques, but drop bear has a point. These moves aren't thrown in isolation and if done well, the striker's intent will be camouflaged.

Suppose you are in kicking range and your opponent starts to spin. No problem - just move in to jam the kick, right? Oops - he was actually throwing a spinning back fist and you ran right into it.

Suppose you are punching range and your opponent start to spin. Okay, now it's definitely safe to move in, right? Oops - this time it was a spinning elbow. Ouch! Maybe it's just safer to move back out of range. Darn it, now it's a spinning kick and you're in range again. Probably you should just back way the heck out of even kicking range - and that's when he covers more ground than you thought he could with one of those crazy tornado kick things and catches you anyway.

To be clear, moving in against a spinning kick (or backfist or elbow) is a valid counter. It just depends a lot on your relative range and pre-existing momentum. Guys who are really, really good at spinning techniques know the right time and place to throw them:

• They may throw the spinning attack as part of a combination that already has you moving back, so it's hard for you to change directions and come back in faster than they can throw their spin.
• They may throw a shorter range spinning attack (elbow, forearm, backfist) as you are already closing in, timing it so you run into the strike. If they step offline as they do this, they can even get you to run onto a spinning kick.
• They may use feints to confuse you, catch you mentally or literally flat footed, and then hit you with a fast spin before your brain can process which way the attack is coming from and which way you should move to defend.

All that said, I don't make spinning techniques an important part of my arsenal. They're high-risk, high-reward techniques with specialized application which require a lot of work if you want to develop the skill, speed, and timing to be really dangerous with them. I'd rather put that same effort into developing techniques which are safer and have more generalized application. (Also, they require a flat, clear, open environment which may not be present in a self-defense situation.) Still I'm aware that a high-level fighter who specializes in spinning kicks can be dangerous and not that easy to counter.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I'm not a huge fan of spinning techniques, but drop bear has a point. These moves aren't thrown in isolation and if done well, the striker's intent will be camouflaged.

Suppose you are in kicking range and your opponent starts to spin. No problem - just move in to jam the kick, right? Oops - he was actually throwing a spinning back fist and you ran right into it.

Suppose you are punching range and your opponent start to spin. Okay, now it's definitely safe to move in, right? Oops - this time it was a spinning elbow. Ouch! Maybe it's just safer to move back out of range. Darn it, now it's a spinning kick and you're in range again. Probably you should just back way the heck out of even kicking range - and that's when he covers more ground than you thought he could with one of those crazy tornado kick things and catches you anyway.

To be clear, moving in against a spinning kick (or backfist or elbow) is a valid counter. It just depends a lot on your relative range and pre-existing momentum. Guys who are really, really good at spinning techniques know the right time and place to throw them:

• They may throw the spinning attack as part of a combination that already has you moving back, so it's hard for you to change directions and come back in faster than they can throw their spin.
• They may throw a shorter range spinning attack (elbow, forearm, backfist) as you are already closing in, timing it so you run into the strike. If they step offline as they do this, they can even get you to run onto a spinning kick.
• They may use feints to confuse you, catch you mentally or literally flat footed, and then hit you with a fast spin before your brain can process which way the attack is coming from and which way you should move to defend.

All that said, I don't make spinning techniques an important part of my arsenal. They're high-risk, high-reward techniques with specialized application which require a lot of work if you want to develop the skill, speed, and timing to be really dangerous with them. I'd rather put that same effort into developing techniques which are safer and have more generalized application. (Also, they require a flat, clear, open environment which may not be present in a self-defense situation.) Still I'm aware that a high-level fighter who specializes in spinning kicks can be dangerous and not that easy to counter.

I guess I think the way I do because I train in a system that always moves forward. In terms of spins the only one I have to be careful are spinning elbows. Spinning elbows are close range and work well when someone tries a bear hug type grab because the hands drop.