Are pressure point strikes practical?

[Skpotamus]

A humorous video about a Daitoryu Aikido "Ki" master who could perform touchless KO's in a video taped challenge match. The top video is him demoing his skills.

The next video is his challenge match against a guy with a purple belt in BJJ.

My personal experience with PP's is that they work great on people expecting them to work. Against someone expecting them to fail or fighting, I've only seen one actually ever work and that's not a true PP.

 

[K-man]

I have seen other similar videos and have no idea as to their authenticity. To control someone without applying some sort of technique is way beyond my meager knowledge. We apply technique against resistance. Strength fails almost every time, softness works much of the time. Without physically training with someone you wouldn't know if it is BS or real. That video stretches my imagination and the proof of the pudding is probably in the second video. Didn't work against a non co-operative opponent.

Mind you, I would be very reluctant to voluntarily test my SD skills against a MMA champion. :asian:

 

[redantstyle]

K-man,

could you define what you mean by using 'ki' in a technique?

im pretty sure i know what you are getting at, but i think you are being misinterpreted.

regards.

 

[K-man]

When I first started to learn karate some 30 years back we were taught that to cultivate power, focus, strength and centre we needed to use ki. For those who understand Okinawan katas this is embodied in kata Sanchin. So body and, for want of a better word, ‘spirit’ or ki equals power and strength. (Please don’t take this to be religious or spiritual.) This is still an acceptable explanation to my mind. Use of ki empowers our centre.
So far, so good. We are young and fast and strong. We can hold our own, but, as we age we slow down and we lose our strength. Have we then to say we have trained for a lifetime but now, with age, it’s finished?
This didn’t happen to the Masters. In particular I am thinking of Morihei Ueshiba. He developed a martial art that blended with his opponent, that trained softness rather than strength and removed the need for speed. He went from strength to strength right into his eighties.
So, I was introduced to a man that had something I had never experienced before. A softness that could overcome my strongest hold or my fastest punch. Hence, I learnt an additional application of ki. The object of this training is to actually merge my energy or spirit or ki with that of my opponent and use that energy to remove his will to resist. So my second understaning of ki is this. My opponent with body and spirit or ki together is strong. If I can remove his ki, he loses his will to resist and his body is weak. Hence my assertion that softness (not weakness) can overcome strength.
Is this widely practised? No. Is it easy to learn? No. Does it work? Yes. Does it work all the time? Not yet for me.
In my case it took 14 months to begin to influence my opponent’s ki.
Now we look at techniques as taught in aikido and to a certain extent ju-jutsu. Do these techniques work against a more powerful opponent? Possibly. They look good with a compliant partner but in our training we find we can normally stop each other , with strength, 90% of the time. If we add ki, and forget the strength, the odds reverse.
I hope this goes some way to describe my understanding of ki. :asian:

 

[ChingChuan]

I don't think that pressure points have anything to do with ki... Pressure points are either nerve plexuses or certain structures (tendons / veins) with receptors that will elicit a reflex when stimulated.

For instance, almost all arts utilize a strike to the plexus solaris (it's really called the plexus coeliacus). This is a real 'knot' of nerves, and when struck, it will cause the diaphragm to relax.

An example of a 'reflex' used in martial arts, is the achilles tendon reflex. There are little receptors in the achilles tendon that give feedback to the brain about one's posture. If you're learning too much forwards / backwards, the brain will automatically correct it (hence it's a reflex). If you use a leg sweep, then your foot will strike against the achilles tendon. The receptors then will initiate the reflex. Usually, you don't really notice the reflex taking place, but a correct leg sweep will stimulate the receptors more than usual and cause a reflex that's too strong - and thus, a leg sweep will usually make someone fall. ( I know that there are different leg sweeps - there are also a few that work on the nervus tibialis - when stimulated aka hit, this nerve will send tiny 'electrical shocks' and cause someone to stumble).

And of course, there are also other receptors that can cause a reflex - like the carotid baroreceptors in the carotid artery. You'll start feeling dizzy if these are stimulated. A common technique which stimulates them, is a knife hand strike to the neck. Also, if you gently press your palms into someone's neck (into the carotid arteries on both sides) and give a slight push, then you'll be able to make most people fall backwards without too much effort.

So... do I doubt the efficacy of pressure points? No, because virtually all martial arts techniques depend on them. Of course, pressure points are usually very 'small' points, you'll need to hit exactly the right spot to get them to work properly - but most martial arts techniques depend on accuracy, don't they? It takes some practise to be able to properly execute a leg sweep - and this isn't because of the fact that the technique is too difficult etc, but it's just because you need to hit the right spot in the right way.

Also, this explains why people don't aways respond the same to the same technique. Some people have quite sensitive nerves and some people don't. I know a guy, which also trains Pencak Silat, who you can hit directly into the plexus solaris and he won't feel anything. My instructor even tried it, to no avail.

Of course, there are also the more obscure pressure points, those related to meridians... My anatomy professor showed us some very interesting research, which states that things like acupunture aren't necessarily connected to taoism etc, but that it's just a more 'simple' (I don't want to offend anyone) explanation for something that can be perfectly explained by science. This is because all nerves are interconnected. This causes things like referred pain - some people who are getting a heart attack, only feel that their left arm hurts.
So, for me, it isn't really hard to believe that it is also possible to affect the function of certain organs by hitting a certain nerve, but I do think that such a skill is very dangerous, especially if you don't know exactly what you are doing... I mean, hitting someone in the stomach is one thing - it's effects can be felt clearly and you know why it hurts - but causing someone's pancreas to shut down or something, sounds more like murder to me...

Well, I hope this contributed to the discussion .

 

[Koshou911]

My sensei always says that if the moon and the stars are all aligned pressure points are effective and that they are very effective but we should never rely on them. Instead what we do with pressure points is use them more for escapes and as add ons to locks we have. Mind you this is what he says to us Kyu Belts so obviously our technique may not be precise enough to make good use of pressure points. The Black belts in the class make very good use of pressure points, it just last night that a Nidan instructor made me "jiujitsu smile" more than a dozen times with his pressure point techniques.

 

[Brother John]

I don't think that pressure points have anything to do with ki... Pressure points are either nerve plexuses or certain structures (tendons / veins) with receptors that will elicit a reflex when stimulated.

For instance, almost all arts utilize a strike to the plexus solaris (it's really called the plexus coeliacus). This is a real 'knot' of nerves, and when struck, it will cause the diaphragm to relax.

An example of a 'reflex' used in martial arts, is the achilles tendon reflex. There are little receptors in the achilles tendon that give feedback to the brain about one's posture. If you're learning too much forwards / backwards, the brain will automatically correct it (hence it's a reflex). If you use a leg sweep, then your foot will strike against the achilles tendon. The receptors then will initiate the reflex. Usually, you don't really notice the reflex taking place, but a correct leg sweep will stimulate the receptors more than usual and cause a reflex that's too strong - and thus, a leg sweep will usually make someone fall. ( I know that there are different leg sweeps - there are also a few that work on the nervus tibialis - when stimulated aka hit, this nerve will send tiny 'electrical shocks' and cause someone to stumble).

And of course, there are also other receptors that can cause a reflex - like the carotid baroreceptors in the carotid artery. You'll start feeling dizzy if these are stimulated. A common technique which stimulates them, is a knife hand strike to the neck. Also, if you gently press your palms into someone's neck (into the carotid arteries on both sides) and give a slight push, then you'll be able to make most people fall backwards without too much effort.

some people who are getting a heart attack, only feel that their left arm hurts.

I agree with you wholeheartedly. The "pressure points", in my eyes, are simply the study and application of the antomical liabilities of the human body. They can be used for 'some' effect, but they're not nearly so magical as many would like them to seem.

For me, their usefulness lies in their ability to evoke a predictable response. For instance, the Sensei who taught me the most about "pressure points" (my preffered term for them) showed me how he could get me to briefly lift one or the other leg in the air a few inches by pressing two points on my arm. It worked!!! That in and of itself isn't all that useful, but then when he coupled THAT response with his leg sweep to my other leg....
BAM!!!!!! Every time.

Nothing mystical though. It was my bodies neurological response to a refered pain, in an attempt to alieviate that pain quickly.

Interesting, useful.....but they have their limitations.

Your Brother
John

PS: I think you're mistaken about the refered pain during a heart attack. That's actually caused by the artery that goes straight from your heart to that limb contracting down on NO blood.

 

[ChingChuan]

Nice to see that there are more people who think that pressure points aren't a myth .

I think you're mistaken about the refered pain during a heart attack. That's actually caused by the artery that goes straight from your heart to that limb contracting down on NO blood.

I was told that it had to do with the innervation of the arm . The nerves that innervate the arm are branches of the same spinal nerves as the nerves that innervate some parts of the heart. So the 'pain signals' from the heart somehow end up in the wrong place. But it is possible that the sudden pain can cause veins etc. to contract, which also isn't a very pleasant sensation.

Interesting, useful.....but they have their limitations

...as every martial arts technique has its limitations . I don't really think that pressure point techniques are a 'different class' of martial arts techniques - without pressure points, we'd be nowhere.

 

[Brother John]

Nice to see that there are more people who think that pressure points aren't a myth .

True.
I know they're not a 'myth', BUT... they have been heavily mythologized! A lot in the past and a LOT MORE in many of the folks who go around today as the 'experts', that make their money through mixing their knowledge of them with their own brand of hucksterism. I think it's very important to remove the mysticism out of it and show it's practical uses. If not, then most will never get past the hucksterism to find the actual, practical applications.

I was told that it had to do with the innervation of the arm. The nerves that innervate the arm are branches of the same spinal nerves as the nerves that innervate some parts of the heart. So the 'pain signals' from the heart somehow end up in the wrong place.

I did some research on this just now and ...

I was Wrong.....
You are CORRECT!!​

In fact you worded it BETTER than the folks I just read, such as this one..​

LINK​

​

I don't really think that pressure point techniques are a 'different class' of martial arts techniques - without pressure points, we'd be nowhere.

I'm really not sure about the very last sentence. In fact, I'd shy away from that. I feel that in the martial arts world, a lot of the snake-oil salesmen-types tend to foist their seminars / books / DVD's onto the unsuspecting public by claiming that pressure points are the end all be all of the martial arts world. That every action needs to be analysed in light of Kyusho / Dim Mak ...etc., and that ever form, kata, set....has them as the only Raison d'être...
and they're not. They've been made a martial arts world fetish, which I think takes them completely out of proper perspective.

But I do feel that the study of "pressure points" is important and useful... but there's LOADS of chaff to seperate them from.

Your Brother
John

 

[redantstyle]

When I first started to learn karate some 30 years back we were taught that to cultivate power, focus, strength and centre we needed to use ki. For those who understand Okinawan katas this is embodied in kata Sanchin. So body and, for want of a better word, ‘spirit’ or ki equals power and strength. (Please don’t take this to be religious or spiritual.) This is still an acceptable explanation to my mind. Use of ki empowers our centre.
So far, so good. We are young and fast and strong. We can hold our own, but, as we age we slow down and we lose our strength. Have we then to say we have trained for a lifetime but now, with age, it’s finished?
This didn’t happen to the Masters. In particular I am thinking of Morihei Ueshiba. He developed a martial art that blended with his opponent, that trained softness rather than strength and removed the need for speed. He went from strength to strength right into his eighties.
So, I was introduced to a man that had something I had never experienced before. A softness that could overcome my strongest hold or my fastest punch. Hence, I learnt an additional application of ki. The object of this training is to actually merge my energy or spirit or ki with that of my opponent and use that energy to remove his will to resist. So my second understaning of ki is this. My opponent with body and spirit or ki together is strong. If I can remove his ki, he loses his will to resist and his body is weak. Hence my assertion that softness (not weakness) can overcome strength.
Is this widely practised? No. Is it easy to learn? No. Does it work? Yes. Does it work all the time? Not yet for me.
In my case it took 14 months to begin to influence my opponent’s ki.
Now we look at techniques as taught in aikido and to a certain extent ju-jutsu. Do these techniques work against a more powerful opponent? Possibly. They look good with a compliant partner but in our training we find we can normally stop each other , with strength, 90% of the time. If we add ki, and forget the strength, the odds reverse.
I hope this goes some way to describe my understanding of ki. :asian:

It does. my understanding is that such things are results of refining the understanding of essential factors like timing, distancing, and the use of angulation. an integral component of 'ki' technique is the creation and manipulation of impulse by preying on our natural tendancy to extrapolate. pressure sensitivity increases with 'soft' technique and counter intuitive response is learned.

somebody who is really good at this can flop you around easily.

regards.

 

[thetruth]

without pressure points, we'd be nowhere.

I totally disagree with that.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

 

[ChingChuan]

I'm really not sure about the very last sentence. In fact, I'd shy away from that. I feel that in the martial arts world, a lot of the snake-oil salesmen-types tend to foist their seminars / books / DVD's onto the unsuspecting public by claiming that pressure points are the end all be all of the martial arts world.

Well, I do agree that some people use their own invented pressure point system to make money, but in the end - what makes a leg sweep work? Why do most people double over when punched into the stomach? What makes wrist & arm locks work?

All those kinds of techniques, which are used in almost every art, work because of the fact that there are nerves & stretch receptors...
If nerves didn't work that way, it would be very hard to control someone without harming him.

That every action needs to be analysed in light of Kyusho / Dim Mak ...etc., and that ever form, kata, set....has them as the only Raison d'être...
and they're not. They've been made a martial arts world fetish, which I think takes them completely out of proper perspective.

So, yes, I think that most (if not all) martial arts techniques are specifically designed for a particular pressure point (by which I mean nerves etc.). If we take the 'common' leg sweep as an example - it wouldn't help if you used a prod of your index finger or something to set if off - it's better when you use your foot.

However, I do agree with you that pressure points itself shouldn't be the 'focus' of one's training. The nerves and other mechanisms are just the stuff that makes it work. If you're learning how to drive a car, you don't need to know how the engine etc. works - it's better to learn specific driving techniques. But you should never deny the fact that there is an engine...

And of course, you don't need to know about pressure points to make them work (my instructor is a very good example of this!) - but it might help with your understanding of a technique, why things are done that particular way, or why it's so hard to learn...

So perhaps now more people will agree with me? .

 

[lordtains]

Well I definitely agree that pressure points are not mystical. I cant say Ki does not exist or that there are no pressure points that work with that, but I can say that if you take "pressure point" in its entire meaning, you use them all the time.

When we say "pressure point", we mean "vital point". ALL vital points from the body. That means the groin, the nose, the stomach and the liver are ALL pressure points. Heck, there are so many pressure points that even if you've never been trained you're bound to hit one some time. We Martial Artists learn to hit weak points. The plexus solarus, the temple, the neck, the nose and the groin. Hitting them works. If you would not use them the fight would take thrice as long and most Arts teach you to finish it off quickly.

are they practical? Of course they are. If someone has you in some kind of lock by your head, and you see a chance to hit him on a pressure point on his leg, then do it! It might be the only way to get out.

But what are pressure points? If you're talking about Dim Mak then the question is a bit more difficult. Those pressure points work, but they're much more precise. However, in a real fight, if the opponent is dazed and you see a chance to hit some pressure points, it far better than keep punching him until he stops moving. Its far quicker.

I say everyone should train in pressure points, but everyone already does. Those more precise pressure points are a bit less practical, but there will always be times where they can be used. There is no such thing as learning something in Martial Arts that is useless. If knowing a couple of precise pressure points doessnt hurt you, why should you be hesitant to learn them?

-Tains

 

[Balrog]

On a passively resisting person (not fighting the applier or trying to pull away from them), I've seen them work maybe a little more than half the time. In all fairness, most were drunks or stoners needing escort out of somewhere. Some you could probably have set on fire and not got a reaction.

On an actively resisting person... I've yet to see anything besides a brachial plexus origin stun work (strike to the neck).

That and the common peroneal (outside of the thigh above the knee) are the only two that are really worth going after as a primary target, IMNSHO. The rest of the pressure points are nice and can clear someone off of you, but you have to set them up first.

 

[thetruth]

When we say "pressure point", we mean "vital point". ALL vital points from the body. That means the groin, the nose, the stomach and the liver are ALL pressure points. Heck, there are so many pressure points that even if you've never been trained you're bound to hit one some time.

Pressure points and vital points are not the same thing and don't use the same processes when having an effect on the body. Vital points have to do with pain and the body's inbuilt protective responses. Pressure points work on meridians etc. You may hit some points by dumb luck but these will not necessarily even add to the effect of the strike. There are far too many variables that come in to play such as where you have struck prior and what angle you are hitting at and your posture etc which in my opinion make them unrealistic

If someone has you in some kind of lock by your head, and you see a chance to hit him on a pressure point on his leg, then do it! It might be the only way to get out.

At best a pressure point in this instance may only distract your assailant for a second so you can apply your other techniques so don't rely on PP for your escape

But what are pressure points? If you're talking about Dim Mak then the question is a bit more difficult. Those pressure points work, but they're much more precise. However, in a real fight, if the opponent is dazed and you see a chance to hit some pressure points, it far better than keep punching him until he stops moving. Its far quicker.

I'm not convinced they do work but like I said that's my opinion from all I have learnt and all I have seen high ranking kyusho guys do. I agree to the keep punching part at the end though

I say everyone should train in pressure points, but everyone already does. Those more precise pressure points are a bit less practical, but there will always be times where they can be used. There is no such thing as learning something in Martial Arts that is useless. If knowing a couple of precise pressure points doessnt hurt you, why should you be hesitant to learn them?

I say train in what you believe to be the best, if that's pressure points then so be it. There may not be anything in martial arts that is useless so to speak however there are things that are useless for certain things. A mortal kombat somersault kick may be good for a freestyle kata competition but is useless in self defence. An eye gouge may be good on the street but is useless in mma competition.

With the hit and miss nature of pressure points due to the huge amount of variables I choose not to devote my time to study them. I have in the past and I have formed my opinions based on this experience. I am not hesitant, I don't want to study them. But people should look into things themselves in order to form their own opinion

Cheers
Sam:asian: