Are Older BJJ Black Belts Really Even Black Belts Anymore?
- Thread starter Cynik75
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People sure do like to judge others. Especially people they don't know, people whose shoes they have never walked in, people whom they frankly have no right to judge.It is BJJ point of view but I think it relates to all martial arts:
Because of newly diagnosed hernia I have more time to watch YT
This topic was recently brought up in our dojo. There are certainly those who earned black belts a long time ago and have since stopped training. One of our students was in his early 80s when health issues and the pandemic finally caused him to stop training. Now, is he still a black belt or not? We consider him a black belt for life, no matter his training status. On the other hand, we also know people who were young when they earned their shodan and moved on, never to return. Are they black belts still? As far as I am concerned, yes, unless their belt was revoked by our sensei for cause. It's an award of rank, it does not reflect current capability.
Time marches on. When the topic first came up, I felt kind of bad. I simply cannot do some of the required parts of some kata in my style anymore. Dropping to one knee, a double jump kick, those things are not possible anymore. And no, it's not simply a matter of 'getting back in shape' or 'getting physical therapy.' I'm talking advanced age and heart disease among other medical conditions. It simply is not possible, despite all the internet medical experts on MT who think otherwise.
So, am I no longer a black belt? No longer a sensei? Shall I return my belt to my sensei and slink off into the darkness, knowing that I am despised for no longer measuring up to the high standards of people I don't know on the internet?
So I asked my sensei. He pointed out that I've been volunteering my time after work for 15 years to teach children and beginning adults. That I still pay my monthly dues and yet volunteer. That I am 'giving back' without complaint or excuses, and doing everything I can to advance my training to the best of my ability. I don't like to toot my own horn, but this is what he said to me, almost verbatim.
So, am I a black belt? Am I sensei? You bet your sweet bippy. Am I everything I was? To be honest, I was never that good anyway, but I wasn't bad, and I'm still not bad. For 60 seconds, I'm as good as I ever was if I have to be. I can prove that to anyone who has doubts and a desire to tell me what I am and am not.
skribs
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The first question that must be asked is: what IS a black belt?
If a black belt is purely based on your ability to win tournaments, then yes, once you are no longer capable of or willing to participate at a high level of competition, your black belt should be taken away. But I don't know of any martial art where your belt color is determined solely by competition.
Belts are not just about proficiency. There's a lot of other stuff that goes into them:
Take a kid who listens 10% from the start, and 20% the next testing period, and 50% the one after that, and we'll probably look at getting that kid their yellow belt then. The first kid listens 100% and this kid only listens 50%, but that's a significant improvement over what they had before.
If a black belt is purely based on your ability to win tournaments, then yes, once you are no longer capable of or willing to participate at a high level of competition, your black belt should be taken away. But I don't know of any martial art where your belt color is determined solely by competition.
Belts are not just about proficiency. There's a lot of other stuff that goes into them:
- Technical knowledge
- Strategic knowledge
- Curriculum knowledge
- Experience
- Leadership skills
- Teaching skills
- Time-in-grade
- Attitude
Take a kid who listens 10% from the start, and 20% the next testing period, and 50% the one after that, and we'll probably look at getting that kid their yellow belt then. The first kid listens 100% and this kid only listens 50%, but that's a significant improvement over what they had before.
This is my opinion, and my opinion only.... Just giving you fair warning, before you continue reading.... I am not trying to offend, just trying to share my opinion here....
I think one of the problems with TMA, is that we put way too much focus on belt color. Because belt color represents a rank. We emphasize this so much that we think that this rank, actually has privileges. We start to think that belt color and rank signify ability.
I go to train. I expect to work up a sweat. I expect to work at different skills to improve them. I expect to find more things to work on. I expect to gradually get better over time, with respect to my current ability. I expect my instructor to teach me, and guide me in that improvement.
The color of my belt has absolutely no impact on any of that. The color of my instructors belt, or the number of dans he has gained, has no impact on that either. My instructors experience, and teaching ability does effect my training. His ability to explain things, and his ability to guide me along that path are what matter. I have had instructors who were shodan and nidan, who had a much bigger influence on my growth than others who may have been 6th or 7th dan. But the differences were never because of rank.... but because of teaching ability, communication ability and experience.... none of which is represented in a belt color.
A lot of us read these type of comments, and agree, that other people put too much emphasis on belt color and rank, but certainly not us. But, then when we go to another school, we really want to wear our belt from our previous school. Some of us allow, that if we go from a grappling art to a striking art... then we can start over... but when we go from striking art to striking art, we really want that rank to come with us. Why? If I earn a black belt in Kenkojuku style Shotokan Karate and then go over to a JKA Shotokan Karate, and they ask me to put on a white belt.... do they contact my Kenkojuku school and have them revoke my black belt? Would my Kenkojuku school revoke that belt if they were asked by the JKA school? Better yet, would the other students in my new school not recognize that I had trained before, if I don't have my rank tied around my waist....? Why is it so important that you keep your past rank in your new school?
I just feel that if we stopped spending so much time worrying about rank and belts, and spent more time and energy on training, and learning... we would be far better off. I think learning to judge people by the content of their character and by their ability and willingness to help, is far better than judging people by a belt that they wear. Sometimes, their ability needs to be judged by their ability to help you, not just their ability to beat you. (those are two different things) Judge a person by who they are, not what they wear. Underestimate people at your own risk....
Done ranting now.....
I think one of the problems with TMA, is that we put way too much focus on belt color. Because belt color represents a rank. We emphasize this so much that we think that this rank, actually has privileges. We start to think that belt color and rank signify ability.
I go to train. I expect to work up a sweat. I expect to work at different skills to improve them. I expect to find more things to work on. I expect to gradually get better over time, with respect to my current ability. I expect my instructor to teach me, and guide me in that improvement.
The color of my belt has absolutely no impact on any of that. The color of my instructors belt, or the number of dans he has gained, has no impact on that either. My instructors experience, and teaching ability does effect my training. His ability to explain things, and his ability to guide me along that path are what matter. I have had instructors who were shodan and nidan, who had a much bigger influence on my growth than others who may have been 6th or 7th dan. But the differences were never because of rank.... but because of teaching ability, communication ability and experience.... none of which is represented in a belt color.
A lot of us read these type of comments, and agree, that other people put too much emphasis on belt color and rank, but certainly not us. But, then when we go to another school, we really want to wear our belt from our previous school. Some of us allow, that if we go from a grappling art to a striking art... then we can start over... but when we go from striking art to striking art, we really want that rank to come with us. Why? If I earn a black belt in Kenkojuku style Shotokan Karate and then go over to a JKA Shotokan Karate, and they ask me to put on a white belt.... do they contact my Kenkojuku school and have them revoke my black belt? Would my Kenkojuku school revoke that belt if they were asked by the JKA school? Better yet, would the other students in my new school not recognize that I had trained before, if I don't have my rank tied around my waist....? Why is it so important that you keep your past rank in your new school?
I just feel that if we stopped spending so much time worrying about rank and belts, and spent more time and energy on training, and learning... we would be far better off. I think learning to judge people by the content of their character and by their ability and willingness to help, is far better than judging people by a belt that they wear. Sometimes, their ability needs to be judged by their ability to help you, not just their ability to beat you. (those are two different things) Judge a person by who they are, not what they wear. Underestimate people at your own risk....
Done ranting now.....
You have a black belt in school A. You go to school B and wear white belt. During sparring, you beat up a black belt in school B. Will that look bad for school B?
IMO, it's the school B's interest to "force" you to wear your black belt in the first place.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
I haven’t watched the video. I don’t know who the guy is who made the video. Maybe I am jumping the gun and making assumptions that I should not make. But videos like this one strike me as pure click-bate designed to attract traffic to his website or YouTube channel by putting up “shocking” or “controversial” topics. Most likely they should be ignored.
Not really. He’s a well respected BJJ instructor responding to questions from aging BJJ black belts who don’t feel confident about their status on the mats anymore.
It’s a side effect of one aspect of BJJ culture where rank is widely held to reflect one’s ability on the mat. Some of these practitioners earned their black belts in their late 20s/early 30s when they were in their physical prime and as they get into their 40s they discover that they can struggle against lower ranked practitioners who are 20 years younger. That shouldn’t really be a surprise, but BJJ is a relatively young art in the States. For some of them, their whole experience with BJJ black belts has been high level competitive athletes. Realizing that they aren’t high level competitive athletes anymore messes with their self image.
In his video, Chewie gives sensible advice. He points out that the knowledge and skill is still there and that a 40 or 50 year old black belt doesn’t need to feel bad if they lose sometimes to a 20 year old purple belt.
This, BTW, is the majority view in the BJJ community and has been said before by other highly regarded instructors. It just needs to be repeated occasionally for the benefit of those who bought into the notion that BJJ rank equals fighting ability a little too simplistically.
isshinryuronin
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Retired presidents are still addressed as "Mr. President." A retired general is still addressed as "General." Retired doctors are still addressed as "Doctor." What about a retired bishop? Same for professors and others who have attained high position. Ali, Frazier and Graciano were still called "Champ" long after they left the ring and their physical skills left them.
Ninth and tenth degree blackbelts, true masters, are limited in their physical prowess as even their physical skills wane over the years. Who would have told Funakoshi, Miyagi, or even Parker that they no longer deserved to be call blackbelts?
To claim otherwise shows a shallow understanding of the concept of "blackbelt." Of course, there are those whose style, training and practice lacked depth and they may agree "blackbelt" refers to just current fighting ability. But their opinions can be discarded with little remorse.
Ninth and tenth degree blackbelts, true masters, are limited in their physical prowess as even their physical skills wane over the years. Who would have told Funakoshi, Miyagi, or even Parker that they no longer deserved to be call blackbelts?
To claim otherwise shows a shallow understanding of the concept of "blackbelt." Of course, there are those whose style, training and practice lacked depth and they may agree "blackbelt" refers to just current fighting ability. But their opinions can be discarded with little remorse.
I watched the video, and do think that you're making assumptions on this particular video. I'll bullet point his points and why I don't think that's the case.
- He's clear on why he's making the video. It's that he was specifically asked this by aging black belts online and in person.
- He doesn't say this when explaining his reasoning, but at 37, he's just starting to decline, which he does mention and I'm sure has him thinking on the topic.
- He's not bashing anyone within the video, or saying anything particularly controversial.
- His main points in the video are also not controversial, and fairly well reasoned (and I personally agree with all). They are:
- At some point, you hit a point where you improve your athleticism by training, and your technique. And when those are at the peak you'll do the best in competition and on the mats.
- After you start declining physically, that does not mean you'll decline in your technique, and you haven't necessarily lost any knowledge.
- The older people at the gym should be aware they aren't always going to be able to beat the 25 year olds, and accept that this doesn't mean they don't have skill.
- He encourages (not demands) that the older people still use their technique to mentor the younger students and teach them, so that they're knowledge is put to use.
- He encourages (not demands) that newer people pay attention to the older ones and listen to their advice, even if they're able to out-grapple the older ones for whatever reason (he implies age/athleticism).
- To go with the second bullet point, just because a purple belt can out-roll you, does not mean you no longer deserve your black belt.
Agree with you 100% there.
If you are a white belt and you defeat a black belt, should your opponent take off his black belt?
If we put the whole earth population into a tournament, there will be only 1 champion. After that champion dies, the whole earth will fill with only losers.
I feel that your belt indicates your technical knowledge and skill
These work to close the gap created by physical characteristics (size, strength, athleticism, age, injuries etc etc) and mental factors (aggression, determination, speed of decision making, age etc)
So in BJJ terms if all things are equal except for age a 40 year old black belt should be a roughly equal match for a 30 year old brown belt
As @Tony Dismukes says there is a time in all our lives (probably mid 30s for competitors, and mid 40s for recreational) when we feel the decline and it's a big adjustment for most people
These work to close the gap created by physical characteristics (size, strength, athleticism, age, injuries etc etc) and mental factors (aggression, determination, speed of decision making, age etc)
So in BJJ terms if all things are equal except for age a 40 year old black belt should be a roughly equal match for a 30 year old brown belt
As @Tony Dismukes says there is a time in all our lives (probably mid 30s for competitors, and mid 40s for recreational) when we feel the decline and it's a big adjustment for most people
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
I guess I honestly did not believe the controversy was genuine. It felt manufactured to me, hence my assumption that it was click-bate and my reluctance to spend any time watching it.
Of course I agree with what you are saying about aging martial artists and the knowledge they continue to hold even when they are well past their physical prime. It comes as a real surprise to me that there would be a strong enough culture to the contrary within BJJ circles that it would be necessary to create a video blog to specifically address it. I had assumed that any aging black belt with 20 or more years in the practice would not have needs that explained, but I suppose some young and inexperienced folks might need the lesson.
This is just par-for-the-course in the circles in which I run, so I am simply caught by surprise that it would be needed.
Yeah, I think most BJJ practitioners understand the situation. But there is still a significant minority of the community who have primarily experienced the art as an activity for young competitive athletes with a distinct pecking order of fighting ability clearly delineated by belt ranks. I imagine that will change over the coming decades as we get more and more practitioners who are my age or older and still on the mats.
Even for those who intellectually understand the inevitable march of time, there's probably some emotional adjustments to make as they transition from being able to effortlessly tap out everybody in class one after the other to struggling against a single lower ranked younger opponent. It's been easier on me because I didn't get my BJJ black belt until age 50 and I was never a top athlete, so I didn't have that lofty peak of fighting ability to descend from. Even so, I still get imposter syndrome from time to time. In my case, it's less about my ability (or lack thereof) to dominate guys who have half my age and three times my athletic attributes. It's more about the fact that BJJ is continually evolving technically. So that 20 year old competitive purple belt who has the stamina to train 7 days per week may have learned the latest technical refinements of a leg lock or the intricacies of a new guard system that I haven't had a chance to absorb yet.
When an entire art is based around being able to beat other people in the art, and that's the primary criteria for grading, it can cause some insecurities when they can't meet that criteria anymore (or the opposite where people don't understand why they can beat a 60 year old black belt, but he has the black belt not them).
One of the drawbacks of a competition style that uses rankings.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Question. DO gold medallist in the Olympic have to return their gold medal when it is obvious they can no longer compete and win against younger competitors? Should Super bowl winners return the ring when they are old? And now that they are older, and can no longer run the 9.58 in the 100, they should also not be coaches?It is BJJ point of view but I think it relates to all martial arts:
Because of newly diagnosed hernia I have more time to watch YT
As for BJJ, once you can no longer beat everyone of a lower rank in the school, are you now unable to teach what you know?
I watched the video, after reading this thread, (the deciding factor in watching it was @Tony Dismukes post) and I actually like what he is saying, and I agree, that is if I understand what he is saying. I think that as age you get older, things change (that I know for a fact at past 60), but you still have a lot of knowledge to pass on and younger guys should realize that and not simply judge the older guys by the fact that they are younger, stronger, faster with more endurance. The old guys still have the knowledge they need that will help them
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I will add that I generally get nothing from respect from the people I train with for still being on the mats and sparring at age 58, even if some of the young pro MMA fighters can kick my ***. I don't know whether that would be true if I were to visit one of the gyms that's devoted to churning out world champions and is filled with elite competitors. Hopefully it would be, but if not it would probably be less about my athletic attributes and more because my skill wasn't at that elite level.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
I can appreciate that perspective.
mograph
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hoshin1600
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It's not about the belt. It's what you had to go through and what you had to become personally in order to achieve the rank. That is what is respected and has value. A war time vet that earned a Purple heart medal still deserves that metal even after he gets home and has aged through the years.
Perhaps a fair way of running BJJ’s ranking system is to make it fluid by testing every exponent, say, yearly and promoting or indeed demoting exponents based upon their performance. This would negate the embarrassment of bloated, old high ranking martial artists, (or indeed clueless academics (ahem)/medical doctors/police/musicians etc since it could be applied to all pastimes, sports and professions). Think of the money that could be made by associations and professional bodies 😉 Or simply add ‘emeritus’ to the end of bloated, incapable martial artist’s ranking.
Does this idea make you feel uncomfortable?
Does this idea make you feel uncomfortable?
