Are Older BJJ Black Belts Really Even Black Belts Anymore?

[Tony Dismukes]

Perhaps a fair way of running BJJ’s ranking system is to make it fluid by testing every exponent, say, yearly and promoting or indeed demoting exponents based upon their performance. This would negate the embarrassment of bloated, old high ranking martial artists, (or indeed clueless academics (ahem)/medical doctors/police/musicians etc since it could be applied to all pastimes, sports and professions). Think of the money that could be made by associations and professional bodies Or simply add ‘emeritus’ to the end of bloated, incapable martial artist’s ranking.

Does this idea make you feel uncomfortable?

It seems a modest proposal.

 

[Steve]

When an entire art is based around being able to beat other people in the art, and that's the primary criteria for grading, it can cause some insecurities when they can't meet that criteria anymore (or the opposite where people don't understand why they can beat a 60 year old black belt, but he has the black belt not them).

One of the drawbacks of a competition style that uses rankings.

I would reframe this just a little. Grieving the deterioration of performance is a natural byproduct of participation in any activity where performance is evaluated objectively. The higher one's performance level, the more difficult it will be to experience the inevitable decline. There are some bad ways to handle it, and some good ways to handle it. In a healthy community, there will be a culture where this is an expected, unavoidable result of sticking around, and something to be celebrated and understood.

This isn't unique to sports. It happens in professions, as well. I have trained and mentored new supervisors for almost 2 decades, and helping them overcome the inevitable deterioration of their technical skills as they learn and develop leadership skills is very common.

But it's not a bad thing. In fact, I think it's a good thing. It means you have people who are moving into a different phase... from performer to teacher or mentor. It means they are beginning to grapple (no pun intended) with this natural evolution of their role, and in a place where the culture is healthy, they will have plenty of support.

Lastly, It's a real red flag, IMO, if no one in a style is grieving their loss of ability. I mean, the idea that everyone is just cool with it suggests to me that performance... actual performance in the style... isn't really prioritized. Simply put, you can't grieve the loss of something you never had.

 

[Steve]

Perhaps a fair way of running BJJ’s ranking system is to make it fluid by testing every exponent, say, yearly and promoting or indeed demoting exponents based upon their performance. This would negate the embarrassment of bloated, old high ranking martial artists, (or indeed clueless academics (ahem)/medical doctors/police/musicians etc since it could be applied to all pastimes, sports and professions). Think of the money that could be made by associations and professional bodies Or simply add ‘emeritus’ to the end of bloated, incapable martial artist’s ranking.

Does this idea make you feel uncomfortable?

Why would you demote someone? I mean, that seems unnecessary and destructive. Ideally, this is just a natural evolution of one's journey within any activity in which they have excelled. I think there's room to appreciate and respect tenure and experience while also marveling at the talent and athleticism of youth.

There will always be younger folks who don't fully appreciate the lessons they can learn from their elders. But in a healthy environment, most will. The flip side is that there will always be curmudgeons who dismiss the talent and resent the ability of younger folks, though again, in a healthy environment, this is rare, as well.

 

[MadMartigan]

It seems like somewhat of a ridiculous question to me. Everyone ages and their bodies stop working at the same high level they used to.

By the time Helio Gracie was over 90 years old, the average athletic BJJ blue belt would have probably bested him in a fight. The thought that one of the founders of the art should have then had his black belt striped away because he had passed his physical prime is ludicrous to me. His knowledge of the art (after a lifetime devoted to its study) means far more than whether he can still pull a trophy.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

It seems a modest proposal.

I saw what you did there.

 

[Steve]

Chat GPT says this:

Yes, an older Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (BJJ) black belt who may not be able to perform at the same level as they once could is still considered a black belt.

While physical ability and performance are certainly important aspects of BJJ, a black belt is also a recognition of a practitioner's knowledge, skill, and experience. An older black belt may have decades of experience and a deep understanding of the art that younger, more physically fit practitioners may not yet have.

In fact, many BJJ practitioners continue to train and teach well into their later years, even if they are no longer able to perform at the same level as they once did. Age, injury, or physical limitations do not necessarily diminish the knowledge and skill that a black belt has earned over the years.

 

[drop bear]

There is a competition ranking sustem layered over the belt ranking system if that is your jam.

 

[Gyakuto]

Why would you demote someone? I mean, that seems unnecessary and destructive. Ideally, this is just a natural evolution of one's journey within any activity in which they have excelled. I think there's room to appreciate and respect tenure and experience while also marveling at the talent and athleticism of youth.

There will always be younger folks who don't fully appreciate the lessons they can learn from their elders. But in a healthy environment, most will. The flip side is that there will always be curmudgeons who dismiss the talent and resent the ability of younger folks, though again, in a healthy environment, this is rare, as well.

Well, the premise of the video is that some BJJ black belts no longer have the skills, abilities and strengths of black belts and this suggests they are no longer, really black belts and so do not deserve to be held in high esteem. Thus, a yearly assessment could be used to cull these disgraces to their art and cast them on the rubbish heap of humanity.

I do not subscribe to this, but was suggesting it for the sake of conversation (and to worry some old people reading it).

 

[Gyakuto]

In fact, many BJJ practitioners continue to train and teach well into their later years, even if they are no longer able to perform at the same level as they once did. Age, injury, or physical limitations do not necessarily diminish the knowledge and skill that a black belt has earned over the years.

Taken of the beat and given a desk job

 

[Steve]

Well, the premise of the video is that some BJJ black belts no longer have the skills, abilities and strengths of black belts and this suggests they are no longer, really black belts and so do not deserve to be held in high esteem. Thus, a yearly assessment could be used to cull these disgraces to their art and cast them on the rubbish heap of humanity.

I do not subscribe to this, but was suggesting it for the sake of conversation (and to worry some old people reading it).

I think that’s the opposite of what the video is saying. Isn’t it?

 

[Gyakuto]

I think that’s the opposite of what the video is saying. Isn’t it?

Oh really? I will admit that I didn’t watch beyond the first few minutes of the verbose, rambling narrative. It rapidly cured my insomnia. Why cant people get to the point?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Oh really? I will admit that I didn’t watch beyond the first few minutes of the verbose, rambling narrative. It rapidly cured my insomnia. Why cant people get to the point?

MTW has a pretty good summary of the video in his comment on the first page of this thread.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Oh really?

yup, but I made the same assumption at first, then after reading through the thread, decided to watch the entire thing.

 

[Holmejr]

How about Soylent Green? Maybe we could simply use their useless bodies for nourishment.
Or
Maybe we can use their experiences and wisdom in the arts to give us a deeper foundation. Standing on their shoulders, hopefully we are able to see further and clearer because we have the cumulative knowledge of past greats.
Maybe a black belt with a gold stripe for longevity and wisdom.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I guess everybody in the NFL Hall of Fame needs to be removed. Because they sure can't perform at that level any more.
Same thing for every coach. Gotta fire them all.

 

[Jeff Webb]

This is my opinion, and my opinion only.... Just giving you fair warning, before you continue reading.... I am not trying to offend, just trying to share my opinion here....

I think one of the problems with TMA, is that we put way too much focus on belt color. Because belt color represents a rank. We emphasize this so much that we think that this rank, actually has privileges. We start to think that belt color and rank signify ability.

I go to train. I expect to work up a sweat. I expect to work at different skills to improve them. I expect to find more things to work on. I expect to gradually get better over time, with respect to my current ability. I expect my instructor to teach me, and guide me in that improvement.

The color of my belt has absolutely no impact on any of that. The color of my instructors belt, or the number of dans he has gained, has no impact on that either. My instructors experience, and teaching ability does effect my training. His ability to explain things, and his ability to guide me along that path are what matter. I have had instructors who were shodan and nidan, who had a much bigger influence on my growth than others who may have been 6th or 7th dan. But the differences were never because of rank.... but because of teaching ability, communication ability and experience.... none of which is represented in a belt color.

A lot of us read these type of comments, and agree, that other people put too much emphasis on belt color and rank, but certainly not us. But, then when we go to another school, we really want to wear our belt from our previous school. Some of us allow, that if we go from a grappling art to a striking art... then we can start over... but when we go from striking art to striking art, we really want that rank to come with us. Why? If I earn a black belt in Kenkojuku style Shotokan Karate and then go over to a JKA Shotokan Karate, and they ask me to put on a white belt.... do they contact my Kenkojuku school and have them revoke my black belt? Would my Kenkojuku school revoke that belt if they were asked by the JKA school? Better yet, would the other students in my new school not recognize that I had trained before, if I don't have my rank tied around my waist....? Why is it so important that you keep your past rank in your new school?

I just feel that if we stopped spending so much time worrying about rank and belts, and spent more time and energy on training, and learning... we would be far better off. I think learning to judge people by the content of their character and by their ability and willingness to help, is far better than judging people by a belt that they wear. Sometimes, their ability needs to be judged by their ability to help you, not just their ability to beat you. (those are two different things) Judge a person by who they are, not what they wear. Underestimate people at your own risk....

Done ranting now.....

My quick experience on this… after getting my 1st Dan in TKD ( 1983) and going around the weekend circuit I left and joined a local Kenpo school where I admired how they fought. After talking to the head instructor and owner about joining I asked him if I should still were my black belt or not. He said he didn’t care… my technique would show my belt level. I thought this very wise . Now many years later I would like to relate one of my best moments. Being 62 years old now and a 6th Dan who recently had a hip replacement ( lots of kicking the past 40 years) I was conducting a demo to sign up new students, but I was doing the talking this time, and my current students were doing the actual moves. Here I am , fresh off a hip replacement two weeks prior, I’m using a walker ( temporarily ) and yet 20 new students signed up that night. ( I still consider signing up 20 new students while using a walker one of my greater moments ) Our goal as more mature teachers is to create students who are better than us, keep them loving the martial arts, and also showing their parents how much you really care about teaching their children.

 

[Gyakuto]

We start to think that belt color and rank signify ability.

Isn’t ability exactly what belt colour signifies? A brown belt is more ‘accomplished’ than a white belt, by definition. I discovered only recently that in my art, subtle details are only taught to a students when they have sufficient experience and hence, a certain grade: other things have to be in place before a further intricacies are placed on top of that, by the teacher.

I have seen a shodan Kendoka, who has been that rank for 25 years regularly placed in competition pools with other shodan of 4-5yrs experience and naturally, wiped the floor with them. It is a disingenuous and shameful tactic, in my opinion, and was met with much of shaking heads and rolling of eyes.

The best thing to do, as I’ve said before several times in different threads, is to remove all visible indications of grade. No more coloured belts (stripes there on), patches etc. This would be very unpopular because people like to show off their grade, their ranking and the esteem these bring from less experienced practitioners and are perhaps even motivated to train harder in order to achieve them!

 

[Xue Sheng]

The best thing to do, as I’ve said before several times in different threads, is to remove all visible indications of grade. No more coloured belts (stripes there on), patches etc. This would be very unpopular because people like to show off their grade, their ranking and the esteem these bring from less experienced practitioners and are perhaps even motivated to train harder in order to achieve them!

In other words they should all be traditional Chinese martial arts schools

 

[Steve]

Isn’t ability exactly what belt colour signifies? A brown belt is more ‘accomplished’ than a white belt, by definition.

Depends on the style or school. In some schools, belt color signifies little more then tenure.

 

[dunc]

The best thing to do, as I’ve said before several times in different threads, is to remove all visible indications of grade. No more coloured belts (stripes there on), patches etc. This would be very unpopular because people like to show off their grade, their ranking and the esteem these bring from less experienced practitioners and are perhaps even motivated to train harder in order to achieve them!

Then it'll be just like a no-gi BJJ class ;-)

Depends on the style or school. In some schools, belt color signifies little more then tenure.

After black belt in BJJ it's all about tenure