Are all these techs needed?

[pineapple head]

I am asking this question known what i will get back but looking forward to the response.:asian:
Why do we need all these coplicated and often difficult techniques when in a "Live" situation it all boils down to handful of basic manouveres?
I know it targets not techniques but why spend countless hours learning them?

Gary.

 

[stickarts]

The way I think of it is this way.
Basic self defense involves studying only the most probable moves, while studying an entire art involves also studying all of the possible moves too!

 

[pineapple head]

Good answer......

 

[Les]

Originally posted by pineapple head
Why do we need all these coplicated and often difficult techniques when in a "Live" situation it all boils down to handful of basic manouveres?
I know it targets not techniques but why spend countless hours learning them?

Gary.

Gary,

As I'm sure you have learnt in your classes, the techniques per se are only ideas for possible solutions to hypothetical senarios.

The techniques are set into the syllabus to help students build their knowledge base, and to serve as a benchmark for a students progress.

One of the benefits of practicing techniques is to ingrain the principles and concepts behind them.

It isn't the execution of a full technique that you will use in a 'live' situation, but your knowledge of the underlying basics, body mechnaics, and correct application.

The techniques are neither complicated nor difficult if you have studied your basics sufficiently.

Take any technique and if you analyse it you'll find it is the application of the principles behind the basics that make it work.

There is a vast difference between 'knowing' a technique and actually 'understanding' it.

The "countless hours" you mention shouldn't be spent learning a technique, but rather analiysing and internalising it.

It's not the number of techniques you know, but your understanding of their structure and function so as to make them into 'useful' knowledge.

Les

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by pineapple head
I am asking this question known what i will get back but looking forward to the response.:asian:
Why do we need all these coplicated and often difficult techniques when in a "Live" situation it all boils down to handful of basic manouveres?
I know it targets not techniques but why spend countless hours learning them?

Gary.

If you don't like what you're learning in Kenpo, Shut up and go train in something else. I'm tired of hearing this question time and time again.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[Ender]

Originally posted by pineapple head
I am asking this question known what i will get back but looking forward to the response.:asian:
Why do we need all these coplicated and often difficult techniques when in a "Live" situation it all boils down to handful of basic manouveres?
I know it targets not techniques but why spend countless hours learning them?

Gary.

well it has to do with muscle memory and options. mostly likely you will never complete a technique in a real live situation, but you have options and can change position, stikes etc., in a split second.

 

[pesilat]

Well, I'm not a Kenpo player, but I've had some exposure to Kenpo and one of the systems I train in has part of its roots in Kenpo and its curriculum is laid out in a fashion similar to Kenpo.

So this answer is more from a generic perspective than from a specific Kenpo perspective. But I think it's accurate and applicable to Kenpo as well.

At a basic level, the techniques provide a method of developing physical attributes geared toward a set of specific goals. They provide options that can be used. If a specific option doesn't work against an opponent, another option might. Further, they provide various options for teaching. If a specific option doesn't work for one student, another might work better.

The techniques are intended to teach (by example) various concepts and principles. Where different techniques utilize the same concepts and principles, they offer different perspectives on them. This deepens the understanding of those concepts and principles.

In the end, the techniques provide a platform for people to develop their own understanding and expression of the concepts and principles.

So, the techniques (and curriculum they comprise) provide a path of self discovery for each student.

Mike

 

[Touch Of Death]

No, all the techs are not needed. It would be like saying you need to know every word in the dictionary before carrying on a conversation. What you do need is a little common sense, a few basic technique ideas, and a great big strong punch off the back hand. Only losers demand that a person to quit for not thinking the same lame way they do; so, don't be discouraged by comments from the peanut gallery.
Sean

 

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo
If you don't like what you're learning in Kenpo, Shut up and go train in something else. I'm tired of hearing this question time and time again.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

Dang! You gave you the evil eye ? Let me give you one of my pills to help bring you down.

 

[Michael Billings]

Yes, you do need them all ... of course you don't have to learn them all to defend yourself.

You can always just jab, hook, cross, uppercut, elbow, knee, front kick, round kick ... then learn 6 to 10 grappling moves. If that is all you want to do. A minimalist approach, and sufficient for some of the newer "Self-Defense" systems being marketed nowdays. But that is not all that Kenpo offers ... it is just all that some detractors want you to learn.

Keep training, it gets better, much better, and lots of fun!

Oss

 

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by stickarts
The way I think of it is this way.
Basic self defense involves studying only the most probable moves, while studying an entire art involves also studying all of the possible moves too!

Thank you! My thoughts exactly.:asian:

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

Yes, you do need them all ... of course you don't have to learn them all to defend yourself

Hmmm...... If you don't need them all to defend yourself, then why do you need them?

 

[don bohrer]

Gary,

You are not really spending countless hours learning techniques, but rather patterns of movement, and core concepts. Both will shape how you respond to situations. Repetition ingrains this info into your brain so it's hopefully there when you need it.

Core concepts are found throughout the techniques and are reinforced by repetition and proper instruction. Deeper understanding comes by working through the material. This allows you a better chance in responding to situations.

In shorts it's all a repetative training tool. Watch the experienced students move next time your in class. I'm sure you'll notice a pattern to their movemnets. Patterns are only built by doing them over and over and over and.....

I like to think of it as mental lubricant so you don't jam up under pressure.

Keep the faith and train.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
Hmmm...... If you don't need them all to defend yourself, then why do you need them?

Its a pure kenpo thing us ma's don't seem to grasp; alas, we are lost to the ways of the world, I suppose.

 

[Michael Billings]

... but the rest of us enjoy the wide variety of possible response patterns, not to mention stretching the boundries a little with what all is possible, both physically and mentally through the Art.

Let me see, what other than Self-Defense could we learn through the techniqes?

Lets pick one that John Sepulveda went over in a seminar with us last week:

In the IDEAL PHASE:

12. GRIP OF DEATH (Left Flank Right Headlock)

1. With your opponent applying a headlock from your left side, step forward and to your left (toward 10:30) with your right foot into a right close kneel stance, while turning your head to the left and tucking your chin against your chest. Simultaneously deliver a right hammerfist to your opponent's groin and a left hammerfist to your opponent's left kidney. (This action should buckle your opponent).

2. Circle your left arm over your opponent's right shoulder and have the fingers of your left hand press under your opponent's nose (or depending upon the circumstances, have your left hand grab your opponent's hair) to Fulcrum your opponent's head back, using his shoulder and the back of his shoulder as the fulcrum. (This should cause a sharp pain to his philtrum, as you also cancel his Height Zones).

3. Immediately pivot into a left forward bow toward 6:00 to take advantage of Rotational Force. In the process thrust a right heel palm strike to your opponent's chin. Simultaneously execute a left Sliding Check down your opponent's right arm, ending at the elbow. (Make sure that the head of your opponent, in either of the cases, is arched and forced back and down to minimize your opponent's leverage. (The force of this strike should cause your opponent to fall to the ground).

4. Pivot back into a left neutral bow, do a left front crossover, covering out toward 10:30.

Just so we all share the same frame of reference. Now as to what it teaches:


12. GRIP OF DEATH

1. NAME: The seriousness of this attacks warrants the name. If properly employed the grip can cause your death.

2. THEME: The headlock is a very common attack used especially by people with wrestling experience. Internalize the importance of simultaneously responding with offensive and defensive principles. This simultaneous and spontaneous explosion will proportionately help you to protect yourself.

3. THE ATTACK: The Ideal Phase begins with your opponent at your left flank (7:00). Your opponent grabs your head and pulls you into a side headlock. Consider these additional factors:

a. Your opponent is stronger than you.
b. Your opponent forces you to the ground.
c. Your strikes have little effect.

4. Be sure to turn your head and tuck your chin against your chest to prevent your opponent from cutting off your air supply.

5. Be sure to have your hammerfists strike their intended targets with accuracy.

6. Borrow the Force of your opponent's initial pull when applying the headlock.
This will magnify the damage rendered by your hammerfists, as well as increase the effect of your left knee buckling the back of your opponent's right knee.

7. Learn to Stabilize Your Base on your first move to prevent your opponent from forcing you to the ground.

8. Practice Grasp of Death and Grip of Death. See if you can discover which situation would favor the use of one technique over that of the other.

9. Analyze the Fulcrum that is employed when prying your opponent's head back. See how you can obtain maximum leverage when nullifying his intentional or unintentional moves.

10. Increase the effect of your right heel palm strike (third move) by:


a. Employing the principle of Contouring.
b. Using proper Body Alignment.
c. Using Back-up Mass.
d. Fitting your heel palm to his chin.
e. Capitalizing on the merits of Penetration.


So now we have some specific things to pay attention to following learning the WHAT TO DO, we begin learning more about HOW's and WHY's.

Next we move into the Black Belt Extension:


12. Grip of Death (Left Flank- Right Arm Headlock)

1. An opponent at 9:00 gets me in a right arm side headlock.
2. Step your right foot to 10:30 into a right close kneel stance as you tuck your head to the left and execute a right hammer fist to your opponent's groin simultaneous with a left hammer fist to your opponent's left kidney.
3. Contour your left arm up and over your opponent's right shoulder manipulate your opponent. Note: Ideally this manipulation is to the underside of the nose (philtrim), but can also be to the hair, chin, orbits of the eyes, shoulder or any other contact point where you can secure a grip.
4. Stand as you use a left anchored elbow in order to create a fulcrum with your forearm and elbow against your opponent's back and shoulder area to increase your leverage.
5. Pivot into a left forward bow facing 6:00 as you utilize torque and deliver a right palm strike to your opponent's chin. Note: Your left hand will release your opponent and become a positional check on top of your opponent's arm at your left shoulder to guide the arm off as your opponent falls; this simply wards against unintentional moves.
6. With your left foot behind and to the right of your opponent's right foot, execute a left foot sweep towards 10:30 against your opponent's right foot so you settle into a left front twist stance facing 10:30. (This should spread your opponent's legs out and disturb your opponent's balance. Your right leg is now the lead leg and your left hand is maintaining a pinning check against your opponent's right arm while your right hand positionally checks to the left of your face. You are also essentially positioned behind your opponent.)
7. Slightly step your right foot to 6:00, remaining in a left front twist stance. Shoot your left foot toward 7:30 into a left reverse bow as you buckle out the inside of your
opponent's left knee. (Your hands are checking your opponent's back, left hand low, right high.)
8. From your left reverse bow, execute a left knife-edge kick to the back of your opponent's right knee.
9. Land in a left front crossover and settle into a right rear twist. Pivot clockwise as you execute a right rear kick to your opponent's spine.
10. Land in a right front crossover and cross out 4:30.

Here we learn about divesifying the angles; being able to execute the same buckles to the back we have to front; attacking the base; ..... and on and on and on.

NO, nobody HAS to learn this, but some of us want to, and thrive on it. So maybe you don't. OK with me, it is not detracting from my or my student's training. It is only your loss, as anyone who has spent decades with the art will tell you.

 

[pineapple head]

Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo
If you don't like what you're learning in Kenpo, Shut up and go train in something else. I'm tired of hearing this question time and time again.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

Clyde, thanks for the effort you put into your reply.


Have a great Kenpo day.

Gary.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Ya wants a better answer, ask a smarter question. Or maybe, just make the statement you want to make, and wait for responses.

Here's my dopey answer: why no. Not at all. You can simply learn to defend yourself without the slightest formal structure to your training. In fact, it's a lot easier to avoid learning techniques, forms, sets, etc., than it is to actually engage the material they represent.

 

[Touch Of Death]

You are right Robert. Using targets as a master key you can use proper methods of execution, moving from point of origin, and staying neutral, to avoid having to learn and memorize a single Parker technique and still have a well rounded and proficient fighter. Go figure, I thought you might never figure that one out.

 

[Kenpomachine]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
No, all the techs are not needed. It would be like saying you need to know every word in the dictionary before carrying on a conversation.

No, you don't need the whole dictionary, but following your analogy, the more words you know, the better you'll be able to communicate and express what you want to, without it being misunderstood or confused.

Or you'd rather be a baby? Mommy, water. Mommy, food. That's also a conversation, though with a very limited vocabulary.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

This is a very old question. To answer it, one must answer a few other questions and examine some assumptions.

What differentiates Kenpo from Japanese/Okinawan Karate? There are several things: including A) theories, principles, vocabulary; B) a larger alphabet of motion and vocabulary of techniques, C) and technique practice. Let me discuss each of these:
A) Kenpo principles are a great innovation enabling the Kenpoist to have a better understanding of motion and self-defense—a truly significant innovation. Can you learn the theories, principles, and vocabulary without all of the Kenpo techniques? Yes.
B) Kenpo provides techniques for just a tremendous variety of stand-up situations.
This is another great Kenpo innovation. Can you have Kenpo’s larger alphabet and repertoire without all of those techniques? No.
C) Kenpo’s greatest innovation over traditional Japanese/Okinawan Karate is technique practice. In the traditional Karate training I’ve seen, techniques are limited to Kata practice. Partner self-defense technique is usually no-contact, very rudimentary, and with little or no application of principles. While you could argue that Kenpo principles can be taught with a smaller technique list, Kenpo’s repertoire could not be taught and Kenpo technique practice would be diminished by a limited repertoire.

What differentiates Kenpo from stand-up sport combatives such as boxing, kick-boxing, and Muay Thai? There are several things: A) ring vs street focus, B) training methodology, and C) repertoire of techniques.
A) Kenpo’s street focus means that Kenpo progress is measured via the awarding of belts after a subjective measurement of proficiency in principles and repertoire. Sport combatives measure performance via ring-records.
B) The training methods differ to support the measurement criteria and objectives of the art/sport.
C) The repertoire of techniques is perhaps the key differentiator driving the difference in measurement of proficiency and in training method. Kenpo includes many “deadly” and “dangerous” techniques that cannot be practiced full-force. These dangerous techniques include strikes to the eye, throat, groin, and joints. Sport combatives have rules prohibiting these dangerous moves thus limiting their repertoire. Because the dangerous moves are removed, sport combatives can train full-power against resisting partners. The sport-combatives training method is an innovation over and above Kenpo’s technique training. All of the stand-up sport comabitives have a very limited technique repertoire but train very effectively with their repertoire. No one questions the punching or kicking prowess of a professional fighter. Boxers and kickboxers would argue: No, all those Kenpo techniques are not necessary.

What differentiates grappling sport combatives such as Wrestling, Judo, and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu from striking sport combatives? Injuries are more common in striking combatives compared to grappling combatives. It would be rare for a boxer or kickboxer to spar for 30-minutes or an hour 4 or 5 days a week the way Grapplers do. Grappling sport combatives have a much larger repertoire of techniques than boxing and kickboxing. The lower injury rate facilitates the greater training time and the practice of a greater number of techniques with a partner. I would argue that grappling styles have an even larger repertoire of techniques than Kenpo. Grapplers might argue that Kenpo doesn’t have too many techniques – they might even argue that Kenpo does not have enough techniques!

This leads to the final and most important question: What differentiates Kenpo technique training from Grappling technique training? Both grappling styles and Kenpo have a huge repertoire of techniques designed to protect against most every situation. The training method is the difference. Kenpo innovated over Karate by allowing techniques to be practiced independently from Kata. Kenpo further innovated by allowing contact on a cooperative Uke. Kenpo has missed the sport combative innovation of practicing the entire repertoire of techniques against a fully resisting opponent who is simultaneously trying to execute techniques and defeat you.

So, in conclusion: the question of whether there are too many techniques in Kenpo is not the right question. The right question is this: Does Kenpo’s technique training method enable the Kenpoist to learn to apply the principles and execute techniques in a realistic combat situation. And that should be the subject of further discussion either here or on another thread.