Applying Your Techniques While On The Ground

[MJS]

I've heard from many people that techniques in the Kenpo system can be applied while on the ground, that the grappling aspect has always been there, but you just need to know how to extract it.

I thought that we could discuss any techniques that you may have been able to apply while grappling, what changes you made to make the technique work as well as how SL4 views this subject.

Of course, keep in mind that the tech. will not look the same as it does while standing, but ideas of movements will be used.

Mike

 

[Andrew Green]

if it's always been there shouldn't all the people that trained with Ed Parker remember him teaching it? Possibly even have video evidence?

I'm sure a lot of the same concepts apply, people only move in so many ways. But the "It was always there" claim is silly, it wasn't, same with all the karate, TKD and Kung Fu people that suddenly realised it was always there when grappling became popular.

I think it's great that lots of people are trying to expand into new areas, but claiming it was always there IMO degrades the system. It wasn't there, and why claim it was? Shouldn't the system have enough strengths on it's own to not have to make claims that it is things that it never was?

 

[Ceicei]

Well, there were some moves and holds I learned in Kenpo that later when I took up Judo/Jujitsu, I realized that these holds were derived from Judo/Jujitsu. It is no secret that Mr. Parker had studied a grappling art also and of course would incorporate his knowledge of moves/holds/takedowns while he was developing American Kenpo. It just didn't dawn on me about that association (until I cross-trained).

Because of that experience, this taught me to take a step back to take a fresh look at the Kenpo techniques. It was then I was able to see more of the grappling moves that existed (I hadn't "seen" before in this context). The new view completely changed my previous opinion that there "weren't any grappling" in Kenpo. I learned to train myself to find/look for similarities and make my motion better.

I still study with JuJitsu and that has helped me understand Kenpo more than I thought possible. Kenpo will always be my base style. Any Kenpo techniques I may use while on the ground will evidently be influenced by my training with Jujitsu.

- Ceicei

 

[Flying Crane]

Well, I think that once upon a time, a long time ago, the arts were more complete in the sense that they dealt more effectively with all ranges of combat, including grappling. Since that time the arts, for various reasons, began to specialize in certain types of fighting and became less well rounded. I don't know why this happened, maybe just personal preference of certain individuals who then passed it on and thus the trend was born. Many (but not all) striking arts became more and more focused on striking to the eventual, almost complete, exclusion of grappling.

So in a sense, it was always there, but maybe too long ago for anyone to actually remember it.

But I do think that many of the standup arts contain techniques and concepts that can be effective in a grappling situation. Kenpo, for example, has a lot of joint manipulation techniques that could be useful in grappling. Of course this is not going to be as effective in a grappling situation as a full on grappling art, like judo or jujitsu, or shuai jiao. But there is stuff there.

If someone who understands the art well were to examine it closely and train with an eye for grappling applications, there is stuff in there that could work. You won't beat Royce Gracie with it in a grappling bout, but that doesn't mean it is empty of merit and wouldn't work against someone who is not a highly trained grappling specialist. That's the difference. Any art that doesn't specialize in grappling, but does contain some element of grappling techniques will never be able to match against a true grappling specialist, in a grappling situation. But in a street confrontation, against an opponent who is likely NOT a grappling specialist, the techniques can be effective if the fight ends up on the ground.

 

[Touch Of Death]

if it's always been there shouldn't all the people that trained with Ed Parker remember him teaching it? Possibly even have video evidence?

I'm sure a lot of the same concepts apply, people only move in so many ways. But the "It was always there" claim is silly, it wasn't, same with all the karate, TKD and Kung Fu people that suddenly realised it was always there when grappling became popular.

I think it's great that lots of people are trying to expand into new areas, but claiming it was always there IMO degrades the system. It wasn't there, and why claim it was? Shouldn't the system have enough strengths on it's own to not have to make claims that it is things that it never was?

This "Always There" Idea would depend entirely on your view of the art and what the techs mean to you. The dimensions change but your basic motion should not. If it does you have a gap.
Sean

 

[JamesB]

I agree with Andrew here. At no time has grappling (for the ground) been a part of the mainstream kenpo curriculum. Saying that one could apply X technique on the ground is not being realistic - Kenpo just isn't designed for the ground. Personally if I wanted to look for solutions to 'fighting' on the ground I would train in Judo or something similar. It's the training method that is most important, not the theory behind it.

However to say that Kenpo isn't a grappling art is incorrect - a huge proportion of techniques are grappling/manipulations which is why I like Kenpo so much

Doesn't really answer the question though: Encounter with Danger is really the only obvious technique that is applied from the ground.

 

[jonah2]

I've heard from many people that techniques in the Kenpo system can be applied while on the ground, that the grappling aspect has always been there, but you just need to know how to extract it.

I thought that we could discuss any techniques that you may have been able to apply while grappling, what changes you made to make the technique work as well as how SL4 views this subject.

Of course, keep in mind that the tech. will not look the same as it does while standing, but ideas of movements will be used.

Mike

Lets say Mr bad guy has the mount with right hand holding you down ready for a pound with the left (of course could be the reversed hands).

A pin of his hand with your left and strike of the arm with your right could break the ‘hold down’ sufficient to manipulate the arm from wrist and turning the elbow to change the centre of balance of the guy on top. Throw a right knee strike / lift of the hips adding to the momentum.

Pretty much delayed sword without the footwork. May as well start right at the beggining if there is a discussion on 'any' technique

Not trained it - but just a thought

Cheers - jonah

 

[MJS]

Lets say Mr bad guy has the mount with right hand holding you down ready for a pound with the left (of course could be the reversed hands).

A pin of his hand with your left and strike of the arm with your right could break the ‘hold down’ sufficient to manipulate the arm from wrist and turning the elbow to change the centre of balance of the guy on top. Throw a right knee strike / lift of the hips adding to the momentum.

Pretty much delayed sword without the footwork. May as well start right at the beggining if there is a discussion on 'any' technique

Not trained it - but just a thought

Cheers - jonah

Yes, this is where I was looking to take this discussion. Thanks!

After taking the time to talk with someone who was able to make things a bit clearer for me, I started to experiment with a few techniques. Here are a few that I came up with.

The Delayed Sword technique that you mentioned above, pretty much using the same idea.

Crossing Talon: Using the same basic idea as DS, but going to the outside of the arm, rather than inside. Bridging onto the shoulders to throw the person off.

Crashing Wings: In the standing version of this technique, for a rear bear hug, we're stepping out and hitting the forearms with your elbows. From a guard position, with opponents legs wrapped around you, this same move can be applied, using your elbows to strike the inside of the legs to get a release.

Mike

 

[MJS]

If someone who understands the art well were to examine it closely and train with an eye for grappling applications, there is stuff in there that could work. You won't beat Royce Gracie with it in a grappling bout, but that doesn't mean it is empty of merit and wouldn't work against someone who is not a highly trained grappling specialist. That's the difference. Any art that doesn't specialize in grappling, but does contain some element of grappling techniques will never be able to match against a true grappling specialist, in a grappling situation. But in a street confrontation, against an opponent who is likely NOT a grappling specialist, the techniques can be effective if the fight ends up on the ground.

Well said!:asian:

Being able to find it is the first part of the battle. Once its found, ideas can be used to formulate an escape. I agree that the average Joe won't be a ground expert. IMO, the idea is to effect an escape and get back to my feet. I'd rather not tie myself up going for a finish on the ground.

Of course, having some grappling training is never a bad thing, but I was just looking to explore techniques from the Kenpo system.

I know that you're coming from a Tracy background. Please feel free to jump in with anything from that system!:ultracool

Mike

 

[spiderboy]

Lets say Mr bad guy has the mount with right hand holding you down ready for a pound with the left (of course could be the reversed hands).

A pin of his hand with your left and strike of the arm with your right could break the ‘hold down’ sufficient to manipulate the arm from wrist and turning the elbow to change the centre of balance of the guy on top. Throw a right knee strike / lift of the hips adding to the momentum.

Pretty much delayed sword without the footwork. May as well start right at the beggining if there is a discussion on 'any' technique

Not trained it - but just a thought

Cheers - jonah

Hi mate, long time no see!

I have a problem with your description of this. I've not yet tried it myself, (at work - will next lesson) - but I cant lose the mental image of pinning and striking his right arm, while his left fist is pounding the snot out of me.

I'm not saying there isnt merit to the tech principles on the ground - I haven't explored it well enough yet - and I can't think of a better solution right now, but delayed sword? I dunno :idunno: I guess I would try to pull his right arm across my body to move his left shoulder and arm away - reduce his striking power, maybe open his face up for a strike with my left? (more like crossing talon I suppose).

I would be interested to hear from a grappler's perspective - what techs they have and the similarities to our standing techs.

Hope to see you in class soon - how is the stick work coming along?

Alex

 

[jonah2]

Hi mate, long time no see!

I have a problem with your description of this. I've not yet tried it myself, (at work - will next lesson) - but I cant lose the mental image of pinning and striking his right arm, while his left fist is pounding the snot out of me.

I'm not saying there isnt merit to the tech principles on the ground - I haven't explored it well enough yet - and I can't think of a better solution right now, but delayed sword? I dunno :idunno: I guess I would try to pull his right arm across my body to move his left shoulder and arm away - reduce his striking power, maybe open his face up for a strike with my left? (more like crossing talon I suppose).

I would be interested to hear from a grappler's perspective - what techs they have and the similarities to our standing techs.

Hope to see you in class soon - how is the stick work coming along?

Alex

Hey alex - good to hear from you

sticks coming on ok - killed the first set so had to make new ones.

Your highlighted section is exactly what I was talking about. the wrist manipulation with a pull on his elbow with my right accross me and rotating the arm would force the head and shoulder off centre.

Again same with delayed sword if the pound has already commenced the tech is too late and time to change it.

See you soon my bud

jonah

 

[MJS]

Regarding the strikes coming down on us. Lets look at this from a strictly grappling point of view for a minute. One escape from the mount, is for the bottom person to get control of at least one arm of the top guy. The next step would be to trap one of his legs, to prevent him from posting it, to give him support and prevent himself from being rolled off. You would then bridge onto your shoulders and off to one side, throwing the person off.

Now, if punches are coming down, its going to be kinda hard to get control of an arm, so we need to do something to buy us some time to do that. Bumping our hips up, going onto our shoulders would cause the top person to start to fall forward. Unless they want to land on their face, chances are they're going to put their hands out to regain their balance. This is the time to get ahold of an arm, and continue with the rest of the move.

Back to the technique on the ground: This same idea above, can be used here as well. In addition, we still have our right hand free for blocking purposes. Its really no different than if we were doing DS standing. We pin, and if the person decides to punch with their left, our hand is free to graft into another technique.

I hope that this was a help.

Mike

 

[spiderboy]

Your highlighted section is exactly what I was talking about. the wrist manipulation with a pull on his elbow with my right accross me and rotating the arm would force the head and shoulder off centre.
jonah

Oh OK, I thought you were talking about Delayed Sword. Looks like we are thinking along the same lines Next time you're in class maybe we can play with these a bit.

Cheers mate,

Alex

 

[Jimi]

When I trained with Henry Sotelo, he showed us some techniques you could consider grappling. Most of what he showed me was using takedowns into finishes/submissions. He never showed us things like guard work or how to achieve the mount (Which we just called it the bully position) One technique of grappling he showed us was using an armbar standing to takedown an opponent (1st he showed us using it to feed them a curb sandwich) and then follow up on the ground by stepping over the arn & head then roll back into the classic Japanese armbar you see a lot in Shooto & UFC. This was 1984, way before the quote popularity of grappling, it was the ninjutstu decade then. We were taught to take someone to the ground, but don't stay there. Throw them away like a bag of trash. What I learned from Henry's offshoot of what he called Kajukenbo defitnately had some ground work, but nothing as specialised as the grappling of today. BTW, I mean no disrespect to any of the Kajukenbo Family by calling out their arts name, it is simply what Henry told us what we were learning, some of the Kajukenbo Family realise that I am not claiming rank in their art, just that I was exposed to things called by that name. A special nod of respect to Master John Bishop for his freindly understanding of my bastard black belt like standing in my training. PEACE

 

[jonah2]

Next time you're in class maybe we can play with these a bit.

Cheers mate,

Alex

Love to roll around on the floor with a 6'2" bloke - but i'm not gay or owt

jonah

 

[Flying Crane]

Well said!:asian:

I know that you're coming from a Tracy background. Please feel free to jump in with anything from that system!:ultracool

Mike

Thanks, Mike.

I gotta be honest, grappling is where I have absolutely the least amount of experience so I am reluctant to comment with specifics. I had a buddy in college who was a judo green belt and wrestled in High School. We used to toss each other around a bit and I learned a few things from him, but that was like 15 years ago. Another friend of mine trained in BJJ, I worked out with him a couple times, but got a bruised trachea each time from the choke holds, that left my throat sore for several weeks. Only did that a couple times. That's really the extent of my grappling training.

It's hard to really describe a possible scenario because I think there is so much that is unpredictable, anything that I might try to describe as a possibility would probably be shot full of holes by anyone with more grappling experience. However, I really think the various joint manipulations, arm bars, wrist locks, elbow locks, and such, would have some real potential against an attacker. Couple that with the fact that you are going to keep punching and biting and kicking while on the ground, and I think things can work out. Again, this is assuming my attacker is not a highly trained grappling specialist like Royce Gracie.

I don't like to take specific SD techniques and try to create a scenario where they might work. I think the techs are too prescribed, and make a lot of assumptions that aren't often true. I don't think that makes the techs bad, but I just view the techs a lot more loosely. I think they give you a lot of tools to use depending on what the job calls for, but I don't like to make any assumptions about using a specific technique in a specific circumstance.

This makes it difficult to go in deep with this discussion. But I do believe that if you get on the mat with your training partners and start playing with the stuff with a focus on grappling, there is stuff that would work.

I think the thing to remember is that the goal is to do what is necessary to neutralize the attacker to the point where you can escape. When you are attacked on the street, you don't want to stay and duke it out with your attacker and prove you are better. You want to defend yourself which ultimately means escape. You aren't going to stay and grapple until you put the guy into a pin, or get him to submit. This isn't a contest to decide who is better. Its an attack, and you simply want to escape with the least injuries to yourself as possible. Sure, it would be nice to put the guy in a painful hold, and keep him subdued until the police can arrive, but that just may not be possible, and shouldn't be your goal at all.

 

[simon]

no offence to everyone....but forget about the grappling aspect, im a 4th dan jujitsu...
if i want to enter the ufc or compete then ground fighting is important, i did this for about 10 years, but when we teach street techs,self defence or traditaional side then we try to dispatchor defend from standing,so keep the kenpo standing.
its ok saying " its hidden in the system"...unless you practice it everyday ( or whatever you practice) but its just like every other karate saying " american kenpo is actually in our system,you justgot to extract it......."
nnnaaaahhhhh, you have to practice specific strategies and ways of performing techniques.
i trained with a 4th dan akk instructor whos also my freind, he started talking about the ground fighting side of kenpo.......but he couldnt beat our kyu grades, although from standing he could wipe em out on the entry ( well most of them hehehehehe) once it came to the clinch he was up you know what creek.
i started akk for the different aspects and strategies,in jj we would apply a lock and restrain ( british law on self defence)...in akk....break the darn thing..they shouldnt be attcking us lol.
im also studying togakure ryu ninjutsu...if the ninjutsu sylabus doesnt go too deeply into ground fighting......instead ...dispatch or restrain asap.
im not having a go here,and im open to others ideas, but im in the security industry and at work in a situation..i avoid going to the floor.

SALUTE

 

[Flying Crane]

Simon, I'm in agreement with you in regards to keep it on your feet because that is where kenpo is best. But in the chaos of an attack, you could find yourself on the ground, and I do believe there is stuff you might find useful, that is all. Not making any claims to be able to beat a grappling specialist, even a kyu grade one. But if a kenpo guy finds himself on the ground with an attacker I just don't believe he has to assume he his helpless.

 

[MJS]

no offence to everyone....but forget about the grappling aspect, im a 4th dan jujitsu...
if i want to enter the ufc or compete then ground fighting is important, i did this for about 10 years, but when we teach street techs,self defence or traditaional side then we try to dispatchor defend from standing,so keep the kenpo standing.
its ok saying " its hidden in the system"...unless you practice it everyday ( or whatever you practice) but its just like every other karate saying " american kenpo is actually in our system,you justgot to extract it......."
nnnaaaahhhhh, you have to practice specific strategies and ways of performing techniques.
i trained with a 4th dan akk instructor whos also my freind, he started talking about the ground fighting side of kenpo.......but he couldnt beat our kyu grades, although from standing he could wipe em out on the entry ( well most of them hehehehehe) once it came to the clinch he was up you know what creek.
i started akk for the different aspects and strategies,in jj we would apply a lock and restrain ( british law on self defence)...in akk....break the darn thing..they shouldnt be attcking us lol.
im also studying togakure ryu ninjutsu...if the ninjutsu sylabus doesnt go too deeply into ground fighting......instead ...dispatch or restrain asap.
im not having a go here,and im open to others ideas, but im in the security industry and at work in a situation..i avoid going to the floor.

SALUTE

I think that FC made some good points on this. I too, am not saying that we should expect to beat a specialist, but I don't think that we should have to curl up in a ball and get beat on just because we end up on the ground.

I'll go a step further and say that it has only been a short time that I've tried to look a bit deeper into the art of Kenpo techs. on the ground. For the longest time I was like, "Grappling in Kenpo? Hmm..Where is it because I don't see it?" After having someone take some time to explain things to me, I began to see things here and there. I do some BJJ to further expand on that ground work.

Mike

 

[simon]

flying crane...i completley agree with you,ive just had many people talk to me claiming their system can do this that and the other.
kenpo on the ground....most techniqes could be used, especially the ones where ( if on you back) you use the opponents head to torque him over.
in jj we use a simple set of rules for ground self defence ( not mma grappling but normal on the street stuff).
1. gaurd ( instantly protect any areas open)
2.pain ( take the attackers mind off attacking).
3.manouvere ( move using bio (body) mechanics to place them into a position you control)
4.finish or restrain then escape.

im sure you can apply most kenpo techs to this strategy.

SALUTE