anyone know this jujutsu?

[bradtash]

hi all,
i am wanting to start jujutsu, there are a couple of places i am looking at but i am not real sure about one them and what they are teaching.
it is called Zosaru ju jitsu,
here is a link,
http://www.zosaru.com.au/home.aspx
they seem cheap from what i can see and i have heard good things about the instructor. however i am confuesed about what they offer, it says on their website that they get their techniques from the following,
The techniques(waza) in the Zosaru curriculum can be found in a number of Ju-Jitsu ryu (styles), including, Takeuchi Ryu, Yoshin Ryu, Sosuishi Ryu, Aiki Ryu, Fusen Ryu, Kita Ryu and Tenjin Shinyo Ryu.
does this mean anything to anyone? i have searched but not come up with alot of them.
what i am looking for is mainly joint locks, chokes and good grappling. coming from a muay thai background strikes arent too important for me but would love the ability to learn the rest. do you thinkk that those styles would consist of what i want.
i tried to ring the school but being around this time of the year it is hard to get an answer and i am moving there in 3 weeks so have not been able to go in and check it out yet so i was just seeing if anyone knows what they offer.
any help would be great thanks,
Brad.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi Brad,

The list of names are Koryu Jujutsu systems. Takeuchi Ryu (Takenouchi Ryu) is said to be the oldest system in Japan based around Jujutsu, Kito Ryu (rather than Kita Ryu as it is mis-spelled on the website) and Tenshin Shinyo Ryu made up the original studies of Kano Sensei, and went into his development and creation of Judo, there have been a number of Yoshin Ryu systems, one of the most popular these days is actually Wado Ryu Karate, Fusen Ryu and Sosuishi Ryu are also old systems (with Sosuishi Ryu involving a large weapons syllabus as well, focused on the sword). Aiki Ryu sounds rather odd, though.

As to this system, I would say that they are taking rather large liberties with their claim that they haev methods from each of these Ryu-ha. Really, from the way it is set out, I'd expect a modern Judo-like system with a fair amount of ground work. I think they're trying to say that their methods are jujutsu, and therefore similar to these old arts, whereas the claim is rather incorrect.

In terms of what you're looking for, it's a modern system, so it'll probably be what you're after. On the other hand, if you found it because you were looking for Koryu-style systems, it would be a large disappointment. Give them a try, and see if you like them.... but you may gently suggest that they take the references to the Koryu systems out unless they actually have training in them. While Kito Ryu and Tenshin Shinyo Ryu went into the make-up of Judo, learning Judo is not anywhere close to learning these arts.... and systems such as Kito Ryu tend to not travel. So my only issue is the misrepresentation of Koryu, either willfully or through ignorance. If they don't listen to that, I'd avoid them on principle, but that's me, and I'm rather a Koryu snob....

 

[bradtash]

wow thanks for the reply,
you seem to have great knowledge of jujutsu.
i am very new to the whole jujutsu side of things, hence why i dont fully understand all of the styles.
i really wasnt looking for any particular "style" but was told that jujutsu was amongst the best on locks and holds and chokes so that is basically all i was after at this stage. i started hapkido a couple of years ago but only did it for a few months as i lost interest and began muay thai but am now wanting to do something that teaches me those particular things. a freind told me to come to his bjj school, but i am not sure that i am suited to that as i prefer to stay upright and learn how to try and wrap people up rather then take them directly to the ground of just plain out hit them.
ok so i got a little side tracked just then lol, sorry about that i just finished a 12 hour shift at work.
i might try and ring again tomorrow and see whether he actually has experience in Koryu systems and if they are basically teaching judo. thanks once again for your help mate.
Brad.

 

[Chris Parker]

Not a problem. Bear in mind that you are probably not after Koryu at all (judging from your posts here, that is).

Jujutsu in Koryu terms is a rather generic term which can refer to any of a range of unarmed or lightly armed skill-sets, most typically grappling systems (locks, chokes, throws etc), but also including striking, small arms, attacking and defensive movements, it can be focused on primarily throwing (such as Tenshin Shinyo), primarily locks (as in Asayama Ichiden Ryu), primarily striking (Koto Ryu), primarily using small arms in conjunction with unarmed actions (Takenouchi Ryu), fighting in armour, or in "regular" street clothes of the time (suhada), and could go under the name of Kogusoku, Taijutsu, Te, Yawara, Gei, Gi, Hada, Goho, Daken, Ju, Jujutsu, Judo, Aikijutsu, Wade, Kumi Uchi, Koshi no Mawari, or any of a number of others.

To give you an idea of Koryu systems, here are some favourite you-tube clips. Enjoy!

[yt]eeki2y-r-Dc[/yt] Sosuishi Ryu Kumi Uchi - very old footage!

[yt]RhTpeCdANzA[/yt] Tenshin Shinyo Ryu Jujutsu - one of the source schools for Judo

[yt]HNH58RzuwPs[/yt] Fusen Ryu - another big influence on Judo, specifically on it's ground fighting according to the stories....

[yt]4wT07uNJMGY[/yt] Takenouchi Ryu - including performing kata in armour.... I really love this one!

[yt]ExviAvkmT1A[/yt] Hontai Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu - another personal favourite, this is another branch of one of the systems I study, and a branch I hope to train in at some point

And, just for contrast....

[yt]y8WeGrQOKBs[/yt] A demo of Brown Belt material from the Roy Dean Academy (BJJ).

[yt]7oqhQYRN4Pg[/yt] A highlight package of BJJ competition

[yt]0q688jrBxts[/yt] A modern "jujitsu" school.

[yt]WjRpTNWv7dY[/yt] A very modern "jujitsu" school, giving a very flashy demo.

You may notice that the spelling changes as well. The correct spelling is "J U J U T S U", rather than "J U J I T S U", however due to the mis-trasliteration modern systems, as well as BJJ tend to use the "jitsu" spelling. If it's a Japanese system, though, it should use the correct one.

Hopefully that should help you know what you're asking about.

 

[Bruno@MT]

While Chris is right on a technical level, I would not tell them to remove the koryu references. At least not at first. I'd just ask them about it.

I know firsthand that in modern jujutsu systems, they often don't even know what koryu is. If they mention it at all, it is probably because the founder of the modern system had some amount of traditional schooling, or at least observed some of the traditional schools when composing the modern system.

As such it is probably not entirely incorrect to mention that some of the techniques come from koryu systems X, Y and Z. They don't claim to teach those systems themselves. that is an important distinction imo.

Most modern dojo I know list those things only to have something in their 'history' section or 'about' page, and it is likely the sensei does not know much more than that or just does not really care. If you, the newbie are coming in and immediately start pushing them to change their website over technicalities, you will likely not make a good first impression.

 

[Chris Parker]

Yeah, but I'm a koryu snob, remember?

The way it is presented on the website seems to indicate that the Ryu-ha go into the make up of this modern system, as it is "About Zosaru Ju-Jitsu", rather than the "Ju-Jitsu History" section directly below it. And just because they all have a Koshi Nage doesn't mean that they are similar, related, or even connected. I'd still be wanting it taken down, as it feels disingenuous to me. But, of course, ask them about it first (I can pretty much guarantee that the founder of the system hasn't trained in them all, though... I'd bet probably just Judo, and he's figuring that gives the connection. Yes to some, not to all).

 

[Bruno@MT]

You are indeed a koryu snob , and you know I am rather a traditionalist as well. But if the OP is not, then he will not win anything by confronting them with what you (and to some degree I) think about that topic.

Having seen and experienced such modern systems myself, I know that usually those references are benign and more something to indicate that it comes from Japan and the techniques themselves have historical origins.

 

[Chris Parker]

Yep, (grudgingly) agreed. And I put up clips of both Koryu and modern systems so Brad can have a better idea of which he is interested in, so hopefully that'll help!

 

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Yeah, but I'm a koryu snob, remember?

The way it is presented on the website seems to indicate that the Ryu-ha go into the make up of this modern system, as it is "About Zosaru Ju-Jitsu", rather than the "Ju-Jitsu History" section directly below it. And just because they all have a Koshi Nage doesn't mean that they are similar, related, or even connected. I'd still be wanting it taken down, as it feels disingenuous to me. But, of course, ask them about it first (I can pretty much guarantee that the founder of the system hasn't trained in them all, though... I'd bet probably just Judo, and he's figuring that gives the connection. Yes to some, not to all).

But you don't know what this guy studied, he may very well have trained in some actual Koryu or he comes from schools that had some of those techniques brought in by his teachers. You don't know for sure.

We have techniques from Daito Ryu, Tachenouchi Ryu, Miyama Ryu and Icho Yama Ryu in our system, they did not dissapear when we left Icho Yama Ryu and put our own shingle up over the door.

Now we also don't claim to teach a Koryu but there are common techniques and elements. It be lying if we said there were no Koryu derived techniques just as we would be lying if we said "We tech Kroyu Jujutsu! Or "Our system has been handed down over many generations."

So I'll give the OP's Dojo of intrest the beenifit of the doubt.

Jujutsu in the west is not going to be as clear cut as Japanese about lineage and what not, that's not good from a preservationist point of veiw but I actually feel it's better if your main goal is combat in today's world.

If your looking for a real Koryu, good luck finding one but by al means search it out.

The best thing is to go to the school, see it and feel it and then use your judgement.

Does it seem practicle? Do I like this style? Do I like the instructo's methods? ect.