Anti-striking

Gerry Seymour

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I don't understand your logic here.

If you try to punch me, your arms will be away from your head and your head will be exposed. If I don't have intention to punch you, and also I don't have intention to drop my arms to deal with your body shot, I can hide my head well behind my rhino guard.

My rhino guard has only 2 purpose:

1. Protect my head.
2. Obtain a clinch.

You are trying to do many things on me. I only try to do 1 thing on you. Who will have better chance?
Again, if you're not guarding your body, a good striker will attack it in ways that cause you to guard it predictably (more predictably than if you start out intending to guard it).

And, no, if I'm on the other side of that, I'm only trying to do two things: punch your head, and protect from the clinch. I'm just going to use more than just your head to get that head punch, since you're protecting it so closely.
 

Gerry Seymour

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I assume that is just common sense without saying. You can go to a Judo tournament and knock your opponent down. You just don't win that Judo match. :)
Actually, striking is mostly against the rules in Judo (I don't recall if they still allow some of the slaps that I was taught, or even if those were ever allowed). By the wording you used, I read it as one person could only strike to the head, which would be a different thing entirely.
 

Danny T

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Actually, striking is mostly against the rules in Judo (I don't recall if they still allow some of the slaps that I was taught, or even if those were ever allowed). By the wording you used, I read it as one person could only strike to the head, which would be a different thing entirely.
Striking is against the rules in Judo Competition but Atemi Waza, striking techniques are in Judo. Unfortunately for Judo many Judo schools only teach the techniques legal for competition so today there is a large segment of Judoka who don't know the atemi waza techniques.

Ude-Ate-waza: arm striking techniques
  • Empi-uchi: Elbow blow
  • Kami-ate: Upward blow
  • Kirioroshi: Downward knife hand blow
  • Naname-ate: Front crossing blow
  • Naname-uchi: Slanting knife hand blow
  • Ryogan-tsuki: throat strike - Strike both eyes with fingertips
  • Shimo-tsuki: Downward blow
  • Tsukiage: Uppercut
  • Tsukidashi: Stomach punch with fingertips
  • Tsukkake: Straight punch
  • Uchioroshi: Downward strike
  • Ushiro-ate: Rear elbow strike
  • Ushiro-sumi-tsuki: Rear corner blow
  • Ushiro-tsuki: Rear blow
  • Ushiro-uchi: Rear blow
  • Yoko-ate: Side blow
  • Yoko-uchi: Side blow

Ashi-Ate-waza: Leg striking techniques

  • Mae-ate: Front knee
  • Mae-geri: Front kick
  • Naname-geri: Roundhouse kick
  • Taka-geri: High Front kick
  • Ushiro-geri: Backward kick
  • Yoko-geri: Side kick
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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Again, if you're not guarding your body, a good striker will attack it in ways that cause you to guard it predictably (more predictably than if you start out intending to guard it).
Assume we are on the same level. You (general YOU) want to punch my head. I want to lock your head. When you right punch at my body. Since your head is open at that moment, I can move in for a head lock.

- You try to use body punch to bait me to drop my rhino guard so my head will be open for your punch.
- I try o use rhino guard to bait you to punch my body so your head will be open for my head lock.

Who will win? What's the success/failure rate? That kind of data is what I'm interest to collect.
 
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JowGaWolf

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Here is a simple sparring rule:

- If you can punch on my head, you win that round.
- If I can get you into a clinch (either double under hooks, or double over hooks, or head lock), I win that round.

Test for 15 rounds (either you punch on my head first, or I get you in clinch first) and whoever wins more that 7 rounds will be the winner that day.

In other words, my sparring partner can do anything that he wants on me. He doesn't have to worry about my kick, my punch, even my throw. He only have to stop me from doing a clinch. This can be a very civilized sparring.

Through the sparring process, I try to prove whether "anti-striking" is possible or not. I'll need a huge amount of data in order to prove it or dis-prove it.

What's your opinion on this?
The only thing you'll prove is if someone is good at striking the head and if someone is good at getting someone into a clinch. This will vary from person to to person. Sometimes punches and kicks can be used to set up clinches. Just not sure you are going to get anything that would be considered as "anti-striking" from this.
 

JowGaWolf

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Old saying said, "If you don't hit your opponent's head, you may have to fight him from sun raise until sun set." If I can protect my head well, most of the body shot will be hard to knock me out.
The same can be said about kicking legs, most people don't have conditioned legs so if your legs are stronger than your opponents then you can win the fight by taking away your opponents mobility. Damage your opponent's legs and he'll spend less time trying to punch you.
 

JowGaWolf

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Assume we are on the same level. You (general YOU) want to punch my head. I want to lock your head. When you right punch at my body. Since your head is open at that moment, I can move in for a head lock.
I don't understand this. Specifically for me. I will attack where you are weak. If your legs are weak I will attack there, If your movement and footwork are weak, then I'll make you move more than you want to. If you aren't good with guarding your head then I will attack you there. If you are strong over all then I will pick a spot to hack away at until you are weak there.

If I want to punch your head, I would attack low and reprogram you. Once I think you have been reprogrammed to react to low strikes, I will change it up and hit you in your head. If you want to lock my head, then I will deny you the distance and or time to do so. There are just too many variables and that will change from person to person. If I want to make you drop your rhino guard then I would attack you in a way where you either take leg punishment or maintain your rhino guard. If your rhino guard is only for punches then I would just kick you.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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The only thing you'll prove is if someone is good at striking the head and if someone is good at getting someone into a clinch.
Agree that there are too many variables to consider in fighting. This is why I try to make my case as simple as possible - head punch vs. clinch.

The strategy is not designed for general MA guys. It's designed for a pure wrestler who wants to fight against a boxer but he has no striking skill.

1. level change with single leg, or double leg can be 1 strategy.
2. clinch can be another strategy.
 

JowGaWolf

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Agree that there are too many variables to consider in fighting. This is why I try to make my case as simple as possible - head punch vs. clinch.

The strategy is not designed for general MA guys. It's designed for a pure wrestler who wants to fight against a boxer but he has no striking skill.

1. level change with single leg, or double leg can be 1 strategy.
2. clinch can be another strategy.
ahhhh.. this sounds better than what was going on in my mind. Technically a "boxer" isn't going to have a full house of striking skill, so it takes a lot of those variable out. This makes sense to me now. I have yet to meet a boxer that kicked. One of the kung fu instructors where I used to train was an ex amateur boxer and the Sifu was always telling him to kick. I have videos of me sparring with him and off the top of my head, I think he only tried to kick me 5 or 6 times. Boxing was his comfort zone and it was hard for me to venture outside of that. I'll have to go back and see how many times he actually kick. I also have some footage of the same guy sparring with people who were only doing take downs. I'll have to see if he was ever able to punch them in the face.
 

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That's not a bad drill. We do takedown defense as well as tie up defense drill. The tie up defense drill is more so when someone is trying to grab, push, control or clinch with you. Essentially preventing the opponent from clinching by working numerous angles of striking.

The tricky part is getting your training partner to actually try to grapple you. I've seen training partners not commenting to grappling techniques and backing off after one or two hits. Our strikes are always controlled and the grappler is in thick sparring gear for the drill. That allows us to get a feel for short-range power generation. It makes it much more difficult, but it's great to be able to practice the anti-grappling dynamic with commented energy.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Striking is against the rules in Judo Competition but Atemi Waza, striking techniques are in Judo. Unfortunately for Judo many Judo schools only teach the techniques legal for competition so today there is a large segment of Judoka who don't know the atemi waza techniques.

Ude-Ate-waza: arm striking techniques
  • Empi-uchi: Elbow blow
  • Kami-ate: Upward blow
  • Kirioroshi: Downward knife hand blow
  • Naname-ate: Front crossing blow
  • Naname-uchi: Slanting knife hand blow
  • Ryogan-tsuki: throat strike - Strike both eyes with fingertips
  • Shimo-tsuki: Downward blow
  • Tsukiage: Uppercut
  • Tsukidashi: Stomach punch with fingertips
  • Tsukkake: Straight punch
  • Uchioroshi: Downward strike
  • Ushiro-ate: Rear elbow strike
  • Ushiro-sumi-tsuki: Rear corner blow
  • Ushiro-tsuki: Rear blow
  • Ushiro-uchi: Rear blow
  • Yoko-ate: Side blow
  • Yoko-uchi: Side blow

Ashi-Ate-waza: Leg striking techniques

  • Mae-ate: Front knee
  • Mae-geri: Front kick
  • Naname-geri: Roundhouse kick
  • Taka-geri: High Front kick
  • Ushiro-geri: Backward kick
  • Yoko-geri: Side kick
Thanks for filling that in, Danny.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Assume we are on the same level. You (general YOU) want to punch my head. I want to lock your head. When you right punch at my body. Since your head is open at that moment, I can move in for a head lock.

- You try to use body punch to bait me to drop my rhino guard so my head will be open for your punch.
- I try o use rhino guard to bait you to punch my body so your head will be open for my head lock.

Who will win? What's the success/failure rate? That kind of data is what I'm interest to collect.
And that strategy is when it gets interesting.
 

Gerry Seymour

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I don't understand this. Specifically for me. I will attack where you are weak. If your legs are weak I will attack there, If your movement and footwork are weak, then I'll make you move more than you want to. If you aren't good with guarding your head then I will attack you there. If you are strong over all then I will pick a spot to hack away at until you are weak there.

If I want to punch your head, I would attack low and reprogram you. Once I think you have been reprogrammed to react to low strikes, I will change it up and hit you in your head. If you want to lock my head, then I will deny you the distance and or time to do so. There are just too many variables and that will change from person to person. If I want to make you drop your rhino guard then I would attack you in a way where you either take leg punishment or maintain your rhino guard. If your rhino guard is only for punches then I would just kick you.
How will you know what is weak at the beginning of a fight, unless it is an area they have an obvious weakness?
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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The same can be said about kicking legs, most people don't have conditioned legs so if your legs are stronger than your opponents then you can win the fight by taking away your opponents mobility. Damage your opponent's legs and he'll spend less time trying to punch you.
By using kick/punch to enter, a foot sweep is my favor. I don't care whether I can sweep my opponent down or not. As long as I can sweep his leading leg to be off the ground, when he is standing on one leg, I don't have to worry about his kick (unless my foot sweep can cause him an outside crescent kick to my head in return). If I can use his leading arm to jam his back arm, I'll have a free hand to punch on his head.

 

JowGaWolf

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How will you know what is weak at the beginning of a fight, unless it is an area they have an obvious weakness?
The best way i can describe it, is how they move. Footwork is everything how one stands gives hint to what they are good at. Grapplers have a different stance than kickers. Punchers have a different stance and movement than both of those. How well they move within these stances gives hints to what they can pull off. The guy that changes stances at will and movement at will means caution in a wide range of things. The guy that moves effortlessly is super dangerous.in multiple areas. He'll bait you and mislead you with his movement which in my opinion is worse than baiting with fake openings. People who move that well force the eyes to always play catch up in tracking the movements.

People of equal or higher skill level seem to have this invisible defense that makes you hesitant or restrained about attacking. Instead of attacking to dominate you are attacking with caution. You can make slight moves and you see these guys adjust ever so slightly in response which means they are reading you fairly well. A beginner or lower skill level person wouldn't pick up on your slight moves and positioning.
 
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