Anti-semitism on the Right

[Darksoul]

-Would it be worth anything in saying "Let it be?" Probably not. I do believe in protecting what you love. And I'm sure its hard for the Israelies to hunt down troublemakers who would hide in residential neighborhoods. Come on, what better place to hide? I don't think as a group the soldiers would just shoot anything that moves, regardless of being the enemy or not. Is it about being against a group or a pack of individuals who cause trouble? Do we no longer single out those responsible and just aim for everyone else?

-The level of hate in the world is quite apallling. And I realize there are a lot of misguided people out there, people who have only ever heard a message of hate. What a thing to grow up with!! We all have known some, for whatever reason, but at that level? Everyday spent in thinking of ways why you're right, they're wrong, and what to do abou them, i.e. kill them, etc. I certainly don't expect a perfect world. I do think, however, that there are bigger problems to face, even if the hatred was ended.

-I am very undecided in terms of a spiritual path. Simply not sure what to think. Although lately I have been pulled in a direction of my own design, combining elements from many different faiths, religions, practices and more. I do believe that its important to keep life going on Earth. To what end, I don't know, but that shouldn't matter. It will reveal itself what the moment is right, should it exist. But until then, we have a shared responsibility: to keep life going. And frankly, killing, for whatever reason, just doesn't cut it.

-IMHO and no offense intended towards anyone here.

A---)

 

[kenpo tiger]

Hi KT,

1492 the year Columbus sailed the ocean blue, is not what the Spanish Jewish remember that year for...

Goes back beyond Hammarabi, the code and all that...

Jewish (hebrews) Semitic (arabs), very complicated. Major hate, by both sides in the name of GOD, now that is sick...Abraham, the Father of both nations they say...

I believe you will believe what suits you, that is fine as long as I can believe what I want to...

Many Freemasons died by the hands of the Germans in the Holocaust in the 30s and 40s, it was not just the Jewish they were after.

I was talking to a former partner. His wife is a German. He met her when he was in Germany in the ARMY. She still does not believe it happened...She was born in 1945 in Germany.

Look what happened to the Armenians, the Russians, at the hand of the Germans in the war.

How about the Carthaginians, they salted the earth, to rid them from the face of the earth...

This incident that happened in the second world war was a tragedy, but not the first, nor the last. I guess it is, who's ox is getting gored.

Talk about getting gored, how about Al Gore, I wonder how he feels???

Slavery, there is so much slavery going on, it makes America look like it never happened, look at The amount of men who died over that.
Now this is something...China and the Manchurians. Japanese??

Sorry, if everything is not spelled correctly...
Regards, Gary

If you had read what I've posted upthread and elsewhere, I have included the others who the Nazis thought were mere oven fodder as well as the other warlike incidents to which you refer. Spelling doesn't count here.

 

[kenpo tiger]

Reality, eh? Have to, eh?

Sorry if this sounds offensive.... but actions based on veiled ideas of racial superiority and divine mandates of "God chose this land for us, dammit!" are about as meaningful to me as the idea that every non-Christian will burn for eternity. And, I'm sure those fire 'n brimstone Christians have had their "transfiguring" and "bonding" feelings, too.

Problem, y'see, is that this "bond" only extends to all those other "special" or "chosen" people. So, you have to understand that those of us who primarily identify ourselves in terms of universal humanity may find such positions... well, goofy.

In all respect. :asian:

I suspect a bit of transference in this reply. NOWHERE did I say that we were racially superior - that goes against the grain. Being different than others is the interpretation I personally give to chosen. How are we different? There are very few of us left, as Canuck as sadly pointed out. We have been picked on consistently throughout history, and I can only say again that, while I deplore barbaric behavior by the armies of the world -- and that includes every last one -- Israel must live as a beacon of hope to us. That's my opinion - not asking you to share it or even validate it. Goofy? Maybe. but it's who I am.

 

[kenpo tiger]

Funnily enough, I too have a visceral reaction to such matters. When I read the genocidal rants of clerics with enormous influence within countries with large armies and nuclear weapons, I want to throw up.

It isn't scientific at all, for all the need to "placate people like Robertson." I want to throw up. So should you.

As I told Heretic, Gary and everyone else, read my posts - don't skim them! I stated that that Rabbi Shas is a nut, in my opinion, which he'd not consider anyway, so why waste my breath? And I've stated my position on terrorism and barbarism ad nauseam here and elsewhere.

My dear boy. One of the last things on my mind is placating you, in particular, and the others, in general. [By the way, never said that, but never mind... don't pet the porcupine.] Arguing for the sake of argument is one thing. The exchange of ideas and debate thereon is quite another.

It comes down to simple fact that if you are not a member of the group, the ideology looks like garbage to you if there's any small part of it with which one disagrees. If you are of a faith that is a majority, you cannot begin to relate to what and how we feel. I should ask my father-in-law to tell you all about the concentration camps - he was fortunate enough to have survived. He probably wouldn't, as he chooses to try to forget.

I was taught in Hebrew school that Zionism was the belief in the existence of the State of Israel. It has taken on a life of its own and has been twisted to suit the needs of the more radical and militant members of my faith. Someone asked how I feel about Ariel Sharon. He's a bit too extreme for my beliefs -- but he is doing what his party believes is best for the State of Israel. After all, that's what our current president believes he is doing, too, isn't it?:enguard:

There is no correct answer here. Faith is just that - faith.

Oh yes. To add to Mark's reply about stating The Name (HaShem) instead of the actual names we have for our deity: yes, it's taught that The Name has powers beyond the understanding and/or control of mortals. That's part of the mysticism arm of Judaism, of which I have only very rudimentary knowledge. I know that when reading Torah and one comes across The Name in one of its spellings, you are told to read it as Adonai (our G-d). The hyphen we use when writing G-d is because one cannot erase The Name, therefore, if The Name is not written out in full (or pronounced), it lives on. Superstition? Probably, but it's what we do - it's faith.

 

[PeachMonkey]

I realize that and should have been more specific as to what I was talking about - that fundamentalist nut mentioned in the press release.

My frustration with Israel's behavior is not limited to fundamentalist nutbags. It has little or nothing to do with "what Israel has to do in order to survive". You'll note that I support Israel's choices in every war through the 1970's. Frankly, I'm not even sure the Palestinians deserve their own state (a topic for another thread entirely).

I don't call on Israel to stop offensives against terrorist organizations, against groups firing Qassam rockets, against people shelling civilians in their homes. I don't call on Israel to drop their weapons and simply accept the heinous, atrocious acts committed against them.

I *do*, however, call on the IDF to follow its own doctrine, which includes the basic values of Human Dignity, Professionalism, and Purity of Arms. The IDF does not *always* violate these values, but instances have been, and continue to be, documented where they do so in the Occupied Territories.

Doing so is counter-productive, and even worse, it is *wrong*. I do not accept the justification of "doing whatever it takes to survive"; Israel has faced tremendous odds in the past and survived without resorting to murder or excessive use of force.

You can justify *anything* by falling back on nationalism and saying "we have to do whatever it takes to survive". KT, you have dropped the Bush Administration (with appropriate icons) in an attempt to "jab" about "doing whatever it takes"; this "logic" falls on deaf ears here, as I don't find those sort of actions by America to be any more acceptable than those by Israel.

Regardless of the history of anti-Jewish atrocities, if you do not judge your people when they do wrong then you run the risk of allowing your people to become as bad as the enemy. Moreover, you run the risk of discarding any moral authority you have throughout the world, and alienating anyone who would help you against those who wish to wipe you out.

The actions of Ariel Sharon and Likud are not "a little excessive". Sharon's actions in Lebanon in the 1980's were genocidal war crimes. Sharon deliberately provoked the latest intifada, and used it as a political tool to gain power. Israel has exceed the bounds of purity of arms in its response to the intifada.

 

[kenpo tiger]

Peach,

For someone so young you always make good sense in your posts. I tend to understate things sometimes, forgetting that sarcasm and diplomatic innuendo do not translate well to the written word. Point well taken about allowing bad to escalate to worse. However, rhetoric will always exist and will most always whip those with a predisposition to it and listening and believing it into hate and unspeakable acts of violence. No panacea exists. Would that it did...

 

[rmcrobertson]

Gee, sarcasm and diplomatic innuendo seem to translate pretty frickin' well when I use them. Hm.

As for the assertion that, "Never said that," hey, like take a gander at your post #66, my dear Watson....one might perhaps claim that you did not use the word, "placate," in the sense I believed, or one might take it as a 'xample of sarcasm and diplomatic innuendo.

Like many, O would-be porcupine, I too prefer to believe that the wacko ideology of a few can be separated out from my own more-mature, decent and innocent ideas. Alas, nope, Prospero was right to acknowledge Caliban, T.S. Eliot was right to write that, "unnatural vices," are tangled in with out decencies--and that freak who's the head of the Shas Party, a big player in Israeli politics, is part of Israeli ideology. Or have they quit building crazy walls, bulldozing olive groves, beating kids and I missed it?

I wish it weren't true. I wish it could be dismissed. It isn't true, and even some rather frightening tub-thumping about survival or some sluffing everything off on "human nature," doesn't dismiss.

Don't pet the English teacher. He will Quote Stuff.

 

[Flatlander]

Now the question is this. Do you supposed that us Jewish People are to let ourselves be destroyed? Or do we have the right to defend our homes and our loved ones from such people that would strap on a bomb to their waist or chest and walk into a small business and denonate that bomb? I do not see the how a military strike is a Terrorist act when it is in defense of Our homes and our people?

Mark, I personally do not believe that responding to violence with violence is the way to resolve the conflict. I have a question for YOU. Why are the Palestinians fighting? Who is actually defending themselves here?

You know, I firmly believe that I cannot be held accountable for the actions of my ancestors. In Canada, the Europeans moved on in, and settled lands that had previously been used and inhabited by the First Nations. Of course, in classic British style, they sought to undermine, displace, and generally facilitate the destruction of Native culture. We are making baby steps all the time toward moving past this atrocious history - of course there is much more to be done. I have to ask myself, how would I feel if a Native person tried to forcibly remove me from my home, under the auspice of it being "rightfully" his? I don't think I'd deal with it very well.

The only way that we in Canada will ever reach a place of true ethnic harmony is when all involved are prepared to sacrifice for the greater good of the generations that are to come. We need to be tolerant, fair, and honest about our motivations. We need to be considerate and thoughtful in our decisions.

We need to be able to coexist and prosper as brethren.

I say, enough of trying to make amends for the past - enough of trying to even the score, enough retalliation for the things somebody's great great grandfather did. Let's look at where we are NOW, and come up with solutions that are mutually beneficial and just.

You know what's most ironic about the entire situation? It is COMPLETELY propogated by people who claim to be more "spiritually" motivated that I. I don't even go to church.

Figure THAT one out.

 

[heretic888]

*shrugs* What can I say??

I guess I just have a hard time as seeing expanding one's territorial borders through force as "defending" oneself. I guess I also have a hard time turning a blind eye to the murder of innocent families as "surviving". What's more, I have a really hard time with these inane justifications that any single ethnic group --- regardless of their history --- "deserves" some kind of homeland they hadn't lived in for centuries, or that it was "divine mandate" that makes this so.

Then again, it could just be the ethnocentric "chosen people" jingoism that turns my stomach. I dunno.

Personally, I wouldn't be too keen if a bunch of industrial superpowers helped a random Native American tribe forcibly remove me from my family's home because their ancestors lived on that spot 300 years ago. That is exactly how I view Israel's territorial expansion.

And, hell, this doesn't even go into the terrorist groups that secured "Israel" for the "Jewish people" in the first place, way back in the early 1900's. Like I said, this didn't magically start in 1949. They were murdering innocent Palestinian families then, too.

Oh, and by the way, the "mysticism branch of Judaism" actually teaches its disciples to know and speak the Name. Sort of a modern-day survival of the Mystery Schools, I guess. *shrugs*

Laterz.

 

[Ronald R. Harbers]

The Heretic wrote:

Personally, I wouldn't be too keen if a bunch of industrial superpowers helped a random Native American tribe forcibly remove me from my family's home because their ancestors lived on that spot 300 years ago. That is exactly how I view Israel's territorial expansion.


The Point well taken. Bravo!

 

[GAB]

Hi KT.

I should have read more and posted less.

I see what you are saying, and I am saying what I wanted to, without reading a lot of the rhetorical stuff, so I become one of the rhetorical ones also.

I am not taking sides on this, for you are much closer to the event then I am.

I feel about the various religions as I do, (agnostic). Thats all.

I was just trying to convey that it is not your religion or culture that is always being picked on.

The Arabs and the Hebrews have been going at it since, David and Goliath.

Regards, Gary

 

[PeachMonkey]

I guess I just have a hard time as seeing expanding one's territorial borders through force as "defending" oneself.

I guess it depends on what you're talking about. If you're referring to new Jewish settlements in the Occupied territories, I'd agree with you. If you're talking about killing plotters who design terrorist attacks against civilians, I'd say you're completely off-base.

I have a real problem with "divine mandates" and "chosen people" too... it all comes from some of the most dangerous aspects of skygod-ism.

Personally, I wouldn't be too keen if a bunch of industrial superpowers helped a random Native American tribe forcibly remove me from my family's home because their ancestors lived on that spot 300 years ago. That is exactly how I view Israel's territorial expansion.

Then your view is askew with, well, history. The rest of the world has decried Israel's acts of self-defense, let alone the acquisition of the Occupied Territories. The United Nations Security Council has called for Israel's withdrawal from them, as well as a cessation of violence by terror groups. Understandably, Israel has resisted doing the former without any progress on the latter. (There are other issues, of course, with Israel illegally buliding settlements in those territories...)

And, hell, this doesn't even go into the terrorist groups that secured "Israel" for the "Jewish people" in the first place, way back in the early 1900's. Like I said, this didn't magically start in 1949. They were murdering innocent Palestinian families then, too.

Nor does it cover the terrorist groups that murdered Jewish settlers during the same time period. Or the British groups that actively supported the Arab terrorists, and later the Arab militias and armies.

Or the fact that there has *never* been a Palestinian independent state.

Your view of Jewish-Palestinian relations ignores, frankly, at least half of the story/

 

[kenpo tiger]

Ah Peach. Always the voice of reason. No, both sides aren't really presented fully and no, it doesn't make anyone's position correct. When dealing with such an emotionally-charged issue, I don't know that any type of argument (both pro and con) will change anyone's mind, nor the situation.

Robertson. Sticks and stones, my dear. Maybe your PhD (assuming, of course, the existence of at least one on your office wall) makes you feel that you are so much more incisive and can lift the fog (or veil, whichever you prefer) from all of our comments and 'show' us 'the right way' to address things, but I did state, from the start, that my answers were emotionally-based. This is why I don't discuss Middle East politics with those I love, just those whose opinions I respect and invite for said discussion. Not you, nor anyone else, will be able to change my mind about Israel. I know intellectually and morally that the situation there is abhorrent, reprehensible, abominable, any other modifier you'd like to use, but in my heart I cannot abandon my people.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Mah deah KT, bubbeleh, nobody don't need no degree to understand that torture is wrong, beating children is wrong, robbing people of their land is wrong, bulldozing their houses is wrong, air strikes on communities are wrong, aiding and abetting massacres is wrong.

Who the hell asked anybody to, "abandon Israel?" Who asked anybody to change their mind about their support for Israel?

Who mentioned anybody's education, come to think of it?

At most, I think it's probably fair to read in my initial post a strong suggestion that one might wanna reject the racist, genocidal ******** spouted by a "rabbi," (teacher, my ***....except in the sense that, I guess, every moron with an ugly program and people stupid enough to follow him is a teacher), and that one might wanna think through what it means to have a vicious fool like this controlling a significant minority of the Knesset.

Generally speaking, hyperbolism and a general attempt to rephrase what others wrote do not represent reasoned approaches to discussion. I'd respond in kind, but I don't write that way.

Meanwhile, we still have our own vicious morons to deal with, like the Klan and the radical fundamentalist Christians who support wacko Israeli expansionists, apparently running on the theory that once the Temple gets built and Armageddon happens, everybody Jewish will convert. Lovely.

 

[CanuckMA]

Mark, I personally do not believe that responding to violence with violence is the way to resolve the conflict. I have a question for YOU. Why are the Palestinians fighting? Who is actually defending themselves here?

I guess then that the US should not have done anything after 9/11?

The Palestinians are fighting for the complete destruction of Israel. Read the PLO charter. Read Hamas' charter.

If the Palestinians really wanted their own state, why did they not accept UN resolution 181? Why did Egypt and Jordan not create a Plestinian state with the West Bank and Gaza when they were controlling them between '48 and '67?

When you are part of the majority, it's hard to understand the other side.
There are reasons we feel touchy about the subject.

We just celebrated our High Holy Days. Do you have any idea what it's like to have to show ID to an armed police officer in order to gain access to your place of worship on the Holiest days of the year? And that's not in the Middle East. I live in Canada.

 

[Flatlander]

I am going to discuss this no further, as it would only serve to further derail the thread.

 

[kenpo tiger]

Who mentioned anybody's education, come to think of it?
Gotcha. I referred only to whether you put things on the wall of your office, didn't I?

At most, I think it's probably fair to read in my initial post a strong suggestion that one might wanna reject the racist, genocidal ******** spouted by a "rabbi," (teacher, my ***....except in the sense that, I guess, every moron with an ugly program and people stupid enough to follow him is a teacher), and that one might wanna think through what it means to have a vicious fool like this controlling a significant minority of the Knesset.
And I answered you, stating that I have no idea of who this nut is and that he doesn't speak for all of us. True, Rabbi means teacher, and there are teachers who aren't worthy of the appellation (goes to martial arts as well, but that's another story for another time.)

Meanwhile, we still have our own vicious morons to deal with, like the Klan and the radical fundamentalist Christians who support wacko Israeli expansionists, apparently running on the theory that once the Temple gets built and Armageddon happens, everybody Jewish will convert. Lovely.

I don't know that I'd call the Israeli expansionists wackos. There have been some pretty good arguments made as to defense of oneself and country (see the post about the US defending itself post-9/11). At least you acknowledge that wacko-ism crosses all lines and it's not limited to expansionists and Zionists. The Temple has been rebuilt and destroyed once already. Will it happen again in our lifetime? I tend to doubt it, unless the wall in Gaza is the beginning... Will we convert? Not bloody likely. They can dream on.