The Khazar Myth and the new antisemitism

[Archangel M]

A continuation of the discussion about the politicization of Jewish ancestry, genetics and the "Khazar Myth".

http://www.spme.net/cgi-bin/articles.cgi?ID=2220

It is one of the great ironies of the 21st century that anti-Zionists and anti-Semites on both the Left and the Right, have returned to racialist arguments against Jews that most of us thought had died out after World War II.

One of the most bizarre aspects of this "re-racializing" of anti-Semitism is the role played by the Khazar myth.

The newly fashionable Khazar mythology holds that modern day Ashkenazim, and especially the European leadership of the Zionist movement, are not Jews at all in the racial sense, but rather descendents from non-Jewish Khazars; therefore, the Khazar "theorists" claim, Zionists and Israelis have no legitimate claims to the Land of Israel.

It would be hard to exaggerate how widespread the misuse of the Khazar myth is among those seeking to delegitimize Israel and Jews today. A recent investigation showed nearly 30,000 websites using the Khazar "theory" as a bludgeon against Israel and Zionism.

Some two hundred websites claim to describe a cabal known as the "Khazarian Zionist Bolsheviks" (KZV). Neo-Nazi and Holocaust denial organizations and websites are particularly fond of the Khazar myth. It is also growing in popularity among left-wing anti-Zionists.

...

This should fit right in with some peoples "tin hattery":

I discovered scores of neo-Nazi websites claiming that "Khazar Zionists" were really behind the 9/11 attacks. I found thousands of websites claiming that "Khazar Jew-pretenders" are in a conspiratorial league with Freemasons, the Vatican, the Illuminati and others to control the world.

 

[Makalakumu]

How can anyone ever answer this question when both sides have been spun so much that no one can say anything without being accused of bias and discredited?

 

[CanuckMA]

It has been answered. No evidence has ever been found supporting a mass conversion of Khazars to Judaism. The King and possibly some of the nobility likely did and installed Judaism as the official religion. But it was a political move to fend off the Xtian and Muslim neighbours.

Multiple credible genetic studies have been made on the Jewish population, all pointing to a common ancestry in the Middle East.

 

[Makalakumu]

That's an interesting claim. "Credible" is often in the eye of the beholder and "science" produced by these sources can be manipulated to show what is politically correct. Have there ever been studies done by skeptics? The problem with research done on religious topics is that they are so loaded with bias that they tend to self-confirm, especially when the studies are done by believers. So, how have these credible sources avoided that problem?

 

[elder999]

That's an interesting claim. "Credible" is often in the eye of the beholder and "science" produced by these sources can be manipulated to show what is politically correct. Have there ever been studies done by skeptics? The problem with research done on religious topics is that they are so loaded with bias that they tend to self-confirm, especially when the studies are done by believers. So, how have these credible sources avoided that problem?

It's not "research done on a religious topic," it's genetics, generally performed by geneticists. There are papers publlished by the American Journal of Human Genetics that demonstrate as much, with various nuances for admixing that did take place There are over 25 pages of titles of abstracts on Jewish genetics on that page-part of what's motivated these studies is exclusively "Jewish" genetic disorders and diseases-further proof of common antecedents.

That those antecedents are, in fact in the Middle East neither confirms any claim on Israel or the historicity of the Bible, though others may use it as such, but the facts, as we understand them, are incontravertible in this instance.

 

[Archangel M]

Come on.

The ONLY reason this is an issue is because people want to use it as justification for making "Jews don't belong here" claims against Israel.

A common theme in Jewish history and still being bandied about. As disgusting as it is.

 

[Makalakumu]

It's not "research done on a religious topic," it's genetics, generally performed by geneticists.

The genetics, in this case, just so happen to be linked to a religious (and loaded) topic. How many good scientists have been guilty of confirmation bias when it comes to religion? This isn't a question that is going to disprove anything, but I think it hints at a reason for skepticism.

Also, the fact that a study was performed by geneticists and that a lot of people agreed that certain groups of Jews are related may or may not relate to the Khazars. Where is the connection?

What about other converts? It would be electrifying to discover that the entire Jewish diaspora was related and linked back to Israel, but when I read this study, it doesn't seem to support that.

 

[Makalakumu]

Come on.

The ONLY reason this is an issue is because people want to use it as justification for making "Jews don't belong here" claims against Israel.

A common theme in Jewish history and still being bandied about. As disgusting as it is.

That's one half of the propaganda for sure. What do you think "experts" on the other side would say? What questions would such a skeptic (assuming they are skeptical) ask?

Imagine if a middle eastern university was able to recreate the results of these experiments?

 

[elder999]

Also, the fact that a study was performed by geneticists and that a lot of people agreed that certain groups of Jews are related may or may not relate to the Khazars. Where is the connection? .

Very well: Here are the conclusions of THE AMERICAN CENTER OF KHAZAR STUDIES-conclusions based in part on that very study, as well as the others on this page, though you'll note that Ostrer's is at the top-youll also not that the authors include Ostrere, Li Hao, Morrow and Burns-not exactly common "Jewish" names:

Key findings:
The main ethnic element of Ashkenazim (German and Eastern European Jews), Sephardim (Spanish and Portuguese Jews), Mizrakhim (Middle Eastern Jews), Juhurim (Mountain Jews of the Caucasus), Italqim (Italian Jews), and most other modern Jewish populations of the world is Israelite. The Israelite haplotypes fall into Y-DNA haplogroups J and E.

That's one half of the propaganda for sure. What do you think "experts" on the other side would say? What questions would such a skeptic (assuming they are skeptical) ask?

Imagine if a middle eastern university was able to recreate the results of these experiments?

They aren't skeptical. Most Arabs share these same identifying genes.

Again, from the previous webpage:

Palestinian Arabs are probably partly Israelite.

At this point I'd suggest that perhaps your study of this matter has been confined to people who have an agenda, and that that agenda is influencing your thinking.

 

[Makalakumu]

Some old saw about negative proof fallacy...

The geneticists studied seven known Jewish communities. That doesn't sound like a comprehensive study. Perhaps people who converted en-masse were not part of these groups?

Ostrer says... 'We really see the events of the Jewish diaspora in the genomes of Jewish people.' ... Ostrer says that the researchers are extending their analysis to more Jewish populations.

This doesn't sound definitive to me.

At the same time, there are traces of European (including Western Slavic) and Khazar ancestry among European Jews.

How much is a trace? If the studied groups were insular and they were surrounded by converts, ANY amount may be telling?

Again, it doesn't sound definitive.

 

[Makalakumu]

At this point I'd suggest that perhaps your study of this matter has been confined to people who have an agenda, and that that agenda is influencing your thinking.

Perhaps, but then again, I'm talking to you guys and reading what you link and post and considering your positions, so does that count as broadening my research? I probably should be working on the work that gets me paid...lol.

 

[Bruno@MT]

What on earth does this matter? Whether the DNA confirms this or that, Jews live in Israel. No matter what the outcome is, it will remain theirs.

This is kinda like arguing that the US does not belong to the Americans because they stole it from the indians, so now everybody has to ship out. While you argue the former back and forth, it won't make any difference because the latter is not going to happen. Or for example my own beloved Belgium has changed hands so many times over the last centuries that is has been nicknamed 'battlefield of Europe'.

 

[Makalakumu]

What on earth does this matter? Whether the DNA confirms this or that, Jews live in Israel. No matter what the outcome is, it will remain theirs.

This is kinda like arguing that the US does not belong to the Americans because they stole it from the indians, so now everybody has to ship out. While you argue the former back and forth, it won't make any difference because the latter is not going to happen. Or for example my own beloved Belgium has changed hands so many times over the last centuries that is has been nicknamed 'battlefield of Europe'.

I agree completely. Whether there is a link or not, it doesn't really change anything.

 

[Tez3]

I don't remember genetics coming up in the UN when the Jews were pleading their case to be allowed to have a homeland. The case was made using solid facts, this was accepted by the majority of countries and Israel was reborn.

The genetics issue was brought up in two ways, one by Koestler who thought if he could prove that Jews weren't actually not Jews they would be free from the stigma of being 'Christ killers' and thus stop the persecutions. It didn't work, it was turned against the Jews instead to prove they didn't have the right to settle in Israel. Others use it to discredit Jews saying they 'fell' from the proper path and therefore deserve persecution anyway. A somewhat no win situation there.

There is no 'new' anti semitism' it's never gone away, as in the past it's always been there in varying degrees but it has always been with us. I'm not sure sane and rational people can understand the sheer hatred that is displayed toward Jews. There really are people who believe we contrrol the world, eat babies, hold satanic rites etc and will attack us physically.

Again there is two subjects here which should be separated, they are the Jews and Israel. What Israel does like any other country is up to it's government and it's people. What Jewish people around the world do is up to them, many Jews don't agree with the way the Israeli governemt handles things but Jews around the world should not be held responsible for what Israel does, indeed there are Jews who believe Israel shouldn't exist and refuse to acknowledge it. No one blames all Catholics because the Italian government does something they don't like. Start seeing the two 'communites' as two different entities.

We've been through the reasons why the Jews (secular and religious) should have a homeland in Israel. I'm not going to repeat them in detail but none of the arguments were religious, I've never said 'oh Jews should live their because of the Bible, because of King David' etc, the arguments have been purely practical, that Jews have always lived there, owned a great deal of land there so it's entirely feasible that other Jews could live on that land. The Balfour Declaration promised Jews a homeland in Israel, this promise being made by the then current 'owners' of the country. The United Nations holding a vote on the 'ownership' of Israel by majority gave the land to the Jews. None of this is a religious argument.

One of the biggest anti Semites in history, Hitler actively recruited Arabs in the area, the Mufti of Jerusalem actually going to live in Germany after being declared wanted by the British for his anti Jewish activities. This anti semitic teaching was passed through the Muslim religious teaching system and you will still find Arab leaders quoting from the protcols of Zion when denouncing the Jews. Yasser Arafact was the Mufti's nephew and virulently anti semitic ( probably not realising our common genetics).

As I've said previously though, the situation between the Arabs and Jews is not religious, it's about wanting land and water. The Israelis have spent considerable efforts to bring water to the desert so much so that other Arab countries such as Saudi actually employ them in secret of course to build irrigation schemes for them. Water means more land can be made productive and of course more valuable therefore desirable.

It could be argued that the carving up of the Middle East after the First World is the seat of many of the problems in the Middle East including that of Iraq and Afghanistan, we sowed seed of destruction there when we took some gamiles and made them 'royal' then carved up the land ignoring age old boundaries and tribal lands. We are reaping now what we sowed then as with Germany after the First World War.

There's much muddled thinking going on where Israel and the Jews are concerned, much of it religious hokum from Christians believing that rebuilding the Temple will bring the end of the world nearer (and you'd want to do that why?), much is muddled thoughts about Jewish beliefs and lack of knowledge about Judaism. ( I joking said I didn't want my photo taken (vanity) and was told very seriously that my decision was respected because they understood I didn't want my soul stolen by the camera, this from 'born again happy clappy' people).


Why is it so important to believe that Christians converted? Is it another reason to beat us with a stick, 'look the Jews take Christians souls and condemn them to hellfire'. If I tell you what is involved in converting how it will take at least 5 years will you understand it's unlikely that mass conversions were held? If I tell whats involved with being a religious Jew will you see how hard it is? If I show you the abuse, the terror endured by many Jews will you understand why many don't convert, in fact it's why the conversions are the other way? I really think that people imgaine conveting is a case of someone standing there saying 'right you lot you're all Jewish now, let's eat'.

Israel doesn't exist because of genetics it exists through mandates and international law, it exists because the majority of the world's countries voted for it to exist. It exists because of people's belief in hard back breaking work carving out arable land from the desert. It exists to give to give hope to those trapped in horrendous circumstances, yes there are still some, Jews in Pakistan and the arab countries while Russia is becoming increasingly more violent towards Jews. It exists to say 'We will remember'. It exists to say 'Never Again'.

 

[elder999]

I agree completely. Whether there is a link or not, it doesn't really change anything.

Then why argue with the science? If someone- a geneticist or biologist-had discovered a link between old world horned vipers and the Mojave Desert sidewinder, you wouldn't be questioning it....oh, wait a minute, there is such a link..:lol:....moreover, if someone found a genetic link between the Hopi and the people of Siberia or Tibet, I'd wager you'd have no problem with it.....oh, wait a minute, there is such a link, etc., etc., etc.......

Come on.

The ONLY reason this is an issue is because people want to use it as justification for making "Jews don't belong here" claims against Israel.

A common theme in Jewish history and still being bandied about. As disgusting as it is.

Well, I dunno-I'm willing to give Scott the benefit of the doubt on this one.

It's worth pointing out that I'm not pro-Zionism or pro-modern Israel, in fact, I'm probably closer to the opposite, and I'm quite prejudiced against modern colonialism-all colonialism, really (Yes, Bruno, all of this long belongs to the Indians, to my way of thinking...:lol: )..... but you can't really argue with the scientific facts, whatever side of the question you're on......not unless you've an axe to grind.....

The genetic record indicates that the "conversions" you're speaking of were more of a case of Jewish men moving into an area and marrying local women-this is why the mitochondrial DNA is more nuanced and complex than Y chromosones, and why Jewish people in each region obviously share DNA with the surrounding populace-eventually, though, once a Jewish community was established, the men would not longer to women from outside the community, and would marry (breed) within their communities.

 

[Tez3]

Then why argue with the science? If someone- a geneticist or biologist-had discovered a link between old world horned vipers and the Mojave Desert sidewinder, you wouldn't be questioning it....oh, wait a minute, there is such a link..:lol:....moreover, if someone found a genetic link between the Hopi and the people of Siberia or Tibet, I'd wager you'd have no problem with it.....



Well, I dunno-I'm willing to give Scott the benefit of the doubt on this one.

It's worth pointing out that I'm not pro-Zionism or pro-modern Israel, in fact, I'm probably closer to the opposite, and I'm quite prejudiced against modern colonialism-all colonialism, really (Yes, Bruno, all of this long belongs to the Indians, to my way of thinking...:lol: )..... but you can't really argue with the scientific facts, whatever side of the question you're on......not unless you've an axe to grind.....

The genetic record indicates that the "conversions" you're speaking of were more of a case of Jewish men moving into an area and marrying local women-this is why the mitochondrial DNA is more nuanced and complex than Y chromosones, and why Jewish people in each region obviously share DNA with the surrounding populace-eventually, though, once a Jewish community was established, the men would not longer to women from outside the community, and would marry (breed) within their communities.[/quote]

If their mothers let them....no girl is good enough for the son of a Jewish mother! :lol:


But even Jewish boys get 'those' urges despite their mothers.......

 

[CanuckMA]

What on earth does this matter? Whether the DNA confirms this or that, Jews live in Israel. No matter what the outcome is, it will remain theirs.

It matters because the argument that Ashkenazi Jews are all of European descent, therefore have no ancestral ties or rights to that land is being made to de-legimitize Israel.

Fact is, there has been a constant Jewish presence in Israel. Moreover, over the past 3,000 years, the only time that little piece of land was under it's own rule was when the Jews ruled it. From 70 C.E. to 1948, it has been under the control of:
The Romans (70-313)
The Byzantyne (313-636)
Ruled from Damascus and Baghdad (636-1099)
The Crusaders (1099-1291)
The Mamluks (1291-1516)
The Ottoman Empire (1516-1918)
The British (1918-1948)

The myth of the Khazars is the underlying current behind statements like Helen Thomas'.

It is part and parcel of the 'new' Anti-Semetism. Criticize everything Israel does, demonize Israel, and argue that they are a colonial power because, after all, they're just a bunch of Europeans.

The new argument is that it's not Anti-Semetism, it's criticism of Israel. Israel is now just a euphemism for Jews.

The actions of the Israeli government are not above criticism. It's Israel's national sport. Just go read Israeli newspapers.

The line is crossed when Israel gets criticized for actions that other nations have a right to.

 

[Tez3]

There is little to be honest that Jews haven't been blamed for, in the OP it stated that some websites were used to blame Jews for 9/11. I asked that people treat Israel and the Jews as two different subject but no one does, as Canuck says, criticising Israel now is the same as criticisng Jews.

Israel exists legally, it exists under international law yet everything Israel does is deemed illegal by some. Countries even alliances can march into other countries without the condemnation Israel gets for just defending herself. Ah but wait, people don't want Israel defending herself do they?

 

[Ken Morgan]

Thank god I'm an atheist...

 

[Carol]

Thank god I'm an atheist...

Oh don't worry. They'll be after you soon enough.

Might have to go underground. Should I start a speakeasy? I could put up pictures of the Flying Spaghetti Monster and charge big bucks for watered down drinks.