Anti-semitism on the Right

[kenpo tiger]

Honestly this so balant in regards off being Pro Palestinian it is laughable. The Jewish People must do whatever it takes to survive and live we will not allow anyone or any country to make us go away.

We have a long memory and we will not allow another situation that occurred in Europe again. The World has never liked or even loved Jewish people and now that we have a homeland. They whomever it maybe wishes for us to go away. Israel must do whatever it takes to stay secure and safe. If this means going to war and rooting out all possible terrorist cells then do so IMO. Reminds me of another Country going into Iraq and the War on Terror.

This is a sensitive subject for some of us.

Thank you, Mark, for saying what I was about to.

Yes, it's not morally correct to blow up innocent children and women. Again - who else is doing that in the name of freedom and liberty...

As to the Roman Army being the knife, since when do armies act upon the will of the people? Nope. The will of the Roman Empire, who ruled Palestine at the time. You'll (and that's a collective you) never have correct, accurate, historical proof (enough - I know there are other threads dealing with this one) that we killed him.

As for Rabbi Yosef Shas, he's a right-wing extremist. I've personally never heard of the man, and would not, since he doesn't consider me a Jew. Truth. The ultra ultra religious (right wing) Jews do not consider American Jews Jewish, much less Reform Jews, of which I am one, and - horrors - female! Know your enemies. I certainly do mine.

 

[heretic888]

My two centz:

1) The crucifixion thing?? Meh. Personally I think the dude was a myth (and with good reason, too). And, even if he wasn't, it happened nearly 2,000 years ago: get over it.

2) Israel is hardly the "innocent victim" here, nor is Palestine. Israel as a nation was founded on VERY dubious circumstances, going back to the "zionist" movement in late 19th century England (among other places) as well as rather nasty acts of terrorism against the Palestinian families that lived there at the time.

Of course, Palestine's not off scott-free, either. On both sides of the fence, we see this inane religious fundamentalism that can so blithely turn a blind eye to the murder of innocent human beings. I cannot abide that.

In either event, claiming nationality or "ancestral homeland" on the basis of racial superiority, religious exclusivity, or "chosen" people-ness is generally what I'd call archaic when I'm being nice. Biggoted, when I'm not.

Laterz.

 

[PeachMonkey]

2) Israel is hardly the "innocent victim" here, nor is Palestine. Israel as a nation was founded on VERY dubious circumstances, going back to the "zionist" movement in late 19th century England (among other places) as well as rather nasty acts of terrorism against the Palestinian families that lived there at the time.

Exactly. As a supporter and admirer of Israelis for some time, I find it deeply offensive when someone accuses me of anti-semitism (again, the intellectual's way of saying "jew-hatred") simply because I do not find many of Israel's actions to be wise, moral, or acceptible.

One can recognize the evil of terrorist attacks on civilians by Hamas and others, believe that Yasser Arafat is morally bankrupt, and *still* criticize Israel when it behaves badly and commits murder.

 

[PeachMonkey]

You, who are critical of all, including the media, who are equally guilty here by exaggerating things (as always).

KT, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch are two extremely credible human rights organizations that have decried the excesses of the IDF and Israeli extremist settlers as well as the behavior of Palestinian terror groups.

Neither is a media organization.

 

[heretic888]

Exactly. As a supporter and admirer of Israelis for some time, I find it deeply offensive when someone accuses me of anti-semitism (again, the intellectual's way of saying "jew-hatred") simply because I do not find many of Israel's actions to be wise, moral, or acceptible.

One can recognize the evil of terrorist attacks on civilians by Hamas and others, believe that Yasser Arafat is morally bankrupt, and *still* criticize Israel when it behaves badly and commits murder.

Well said, peachmonkey. :asian:

 

[kenpo tiger]

KT, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch are two extremely credible human rights organizations that have decried the excesses of the IDF and Israeli extremist settlers as well as the behavior of Palestinian terror groups.

Neither is a media organization.

I realize that and should have been more specific as to what I was talking about - that fundamentalist nut mentioned in the press release.

War is a miserable, ugly, unfair, hypocritical method of establishing one's superiority over another. So is genocide. So is the Inquisition. So many people have suffered because of someone else believing that their right is right.

However, I think that there are two types of respondents to this thread. I, and Mark Weiser, have our own way of viewing what goes on in Israel, and it's tied to our faith as well as a common bond within our people which is not easily or intellectually explained. As he, and I, have stated, Israel must do whatever it takes to survive. It's not just about the real estate in question, which was useless to everyone at the time of the partition in 1949 and only became desirable because our people made it so, it's about a deep-seated feeling of longing, of belonging, of going/coming home - 'next year in Jerusalem'. Until and unless you have lived in HaEretz you cannot possibly begin to understand what it is that we feel because just touching the soil there transfigures one. It cannot be explained in 'scientific' language, to placate those like Robertson, nor can it be explained in logical fashion, because it isn't logic which dictates the feelings and emotions attached to Israel for all Jews. I am an American, and am proud of that fact, but I am also a Jew, which is more than just a religion. It's a culture, a way of life, and an emotional tie to those who came before. It's the reaction one has when visiting Yad VaShem, the Holocaust Memorial in Jerusalem, and seeing in the final gallery the shoes gathered from outside the ovens - small shoes of children, larger ones of their parents, grandparents, aunts and uncles, cousins. It's the same visceral reaction one has when visiting the Holocaust Museum in our nation's capital and viewing the gallery where the experimentation by the Nazi doctors is so graphically depicted. Do you know that gallery is colder than the rest? All that -- so how can you expect us to remain unemotional and judge our people for doing what they sometimes have to and creating 'collateral damage' in the process. Yes, it's morally wrong and repugnant to wage war, to take the lives of innocents, and to be aggressively engaged in retaining a tiny patch of ground about as large as Rhode Island in a sea of enemies. But it's reality.

 

[heretic888]

Reality, eh? Have to, eh?

Sorry if this sounds offensive.... but actions based on veiled ideas of racial superiority and divine mandates of "God chose this land for us, dammit!" are about as meaningful to me as the idea that every non-Christian will burn for eternity. And, I'm sure those fire 'n brimstone Christians have had their "transfiguring" and "bonding" feelings, too.

Problem, y'see, is that this "bond" only extends to all those other "special" or "chosen" people. So, you have to understand that those of us who primarily identify ourselves in terms of universal humanity may find such positions... well, goofy.

In all respect. :asian:

 

[GAB]

Hi KT,

1492 the year Columbus sailed the ocean blue, is not what the Spanish Jewish remember that year for...

Goes back beyond Hammarabi, the code and all that...

Jewish (hebrews) Semitic (arabs), very complicated. Major hate, by both sides in the name of GOD, now that is sick...Abraham, the Father of both nations they say...

I believe you will believe what suits you, that is fine as long as I can believe what I want to...

Many Freemasons died by the hands of the Germans in the Holocaust in the 30s and 40s, it was not just the Jewish they were after.

I was talking to a former partner. His wife is a German. He met her when he was in Germany in the ARMY. She still does not believe it happened...She was born in 1945 in Germany.

Look what happened to the Armenians, the Russians, at the hand of the Germans in the war.

How about the Carthaginians, they salted the earth, to rid them from the face of the earth...

This incident that happened in the second world war was a tragedy, but not the first, nor the last. I guess it is, who's ox is getting gored.

Talk about getting gored, how about Al Gore, I wonder how he feels???

Slavery, there is so much slavery going on, it makes America look like it never happened, look at The amount of men who died over that.
Now this is something...China and the Manchurians. Japanese??

Sorry, if everything is not spelled correctly...
Regards, Gary

 

[rmcrobertson]

Funnily enough, I too have a visceral reaction to such matters. When I read the genocidal rants of clerics with enormous influence within countries with large armies and nuclear weapons, I want to throw up.

It isn't scientific at all, for all the need to "placate people like Robertson." I want to throw up. So should you.

 

[Mark Weiser]

The Current view of our world is that we still have Survivors from that horrible incident in Europe and we are reminded as Jews to always remember and do not let the deaths of our ancestors be in vain. There have and are lessons to be learned from that incident and Israel must and again I say MUST not allow another group of people have control over us and we will not allow anyone person or group dictate our Future, Our future is in HaShem's care, That is the Lesson we have learned that we must fight to ensure our survivual.

Historically Jewish people have been kicked out of just about every nation on the Planet and we are usually blamed for the bad things that occur within societies thur out the World's History. We are often reminded by our Grand Parents and earlier generations and by our Rabbi's of these facts and you can research this subject and come to the same conclusion.

 

[heretic888]

The Current view of our world is that we still have Survivors from that horrible incident in Europe and we are reminded as Jews to always remember and do not let the deaths of our ancestors be in vain. There have and are lessons to be learned from that incident and Israel must and again I say MUST not allow another group of people have control over us and we will not allow anyone person or group dictate our Future, Our future is in HaShem's care, That is the Lesson we have learned that we must fight to ensure our survivual.

Ugh.

Please tell me I'm not the only one that sees the blatant ethnocentrism, nationalism, religious exclusivity, and downright 'us' versus 'them' mentality in Zionist claims like this?? :shrug:

Its kinda funny... considering how these nationalistic "divine right" arguments have been used to justify rather horrid brutalities over the millenia. That is, funny if it wasn't so spine-chillingly disgusting.

Historically Jewish people have been kicked out of just about every nation on the Planet and we are usually blamed for the bad things that occur within societies thur out the World's History. We are often reminded by our Grand Parents and earlier generations and by our Rabbi's of these facts and you can research this subject and come to the same conclusion.

Ummm... didn't the Jewish people slaughter and pillage their way to the "promised land"??

 

[GAB]

Hi Mark,

I notice you do not use the word GOD.

When was the Supreme being, or the Deity, or God, called God, that you can't use that name and not HaShem?

How long has your culture called, God, HaShem?

I am just asking for information, I won't know unless I ask.

Regards, Gary

 

[Mark Weiser]

It has always been used the Term HaShem which means the NAME. It has been said that His Name has power. The honor placed upon the His Name is very sacred to us. The Rabbis since the giving of the Law have always honored HIM in this way.

 

[CanuckMA]

The Current view of our world is that we still have Survivors from that horrible incident in Europe and we are reminded as Jews to always remember and do not let the deaths of our ancestors be in vain. There have and are lessons to be learned from that incident and Israel must and again I say MUST not allow another group of people have control over us and we will not allow anyone person or group dictate our Future, Our future is in HaShem's care, That is the Lesson we have learned that we must fight to ensure our survivual.

Ugh.

Please tell me I'm not the only one that sees the blatant ethnocentrism, nationalism, religious exclusivity, and downright 'us' versus 'them' mentality in Zionist claims like this?? :shrug:

When we sit down for the Seder, and the ENTIRE extended family, on both sides, totals less than 20, my family is quite accutely reminded of the Holocaust.

 

[Mark Weiser]

In some circles the useage of the Term ZIONIST is extremely offensive to us Jewish people depended on your intent in using this descriptive word.

 

[GAB]

Hi Mark,
Thanks for the information, I went to the Google search after asking, found out and you confirmed it.
Zion National park, will it be getting a new name soon?

Regards, Gary

 

[heretic888]

When we sit down for the Seder, and the ENTIRE extended family, on both sides, totals less than 20, my family is quite accutely reminded of the Holocaust.

That's all well and good, but in no way is it some free pass for racial superiority, divine mandates, or the notion that anyone just HAS to increase their country's borders to "survive" --- killing a lot of innocent families in the process. Besides, there were Zionist groups using terrorism to secure their "inhabitance" of Israel long before the Holocaust. By no means did this stuff start in 1949.

I look at this the same way I look at 9/11: I don't think cultural tragedies should be green lights for political agendas. They should remind people of their shared humanity, not their skin colors or "chosen religions".

But, hey, that's just how I see it.

In some circles the useage of the Term ZIONIST is extremely offensive to us Jewish people depended on your intent in using this descriptive word.

It probably means what you think it means.

I use the term to refer to the blatant territorial expansion, fanatical nationalism, and abhorrent racial/religious superiority that some branches of Judaism seem to think is kosher (pardon the pun).

I just personally think that peace is preferable to "manifest destinies", "divine mandates" or claims for "promised lands". Guess I'm just a wacky kinda guy.

 

[Mark Weiser]

We could go on for days about the agenda of the Arabs in the Middle East and how they have publicly and in writing how they wish to kill the Nation of Israel or destroy it. You can even look up the documents on the Internet. They do not try to hide the fact they wish to see every Jew out of the Middle East. Now I guess the World would love nothing more than to see the Nation of Isarel destroyed.

Now the question is this. Do you supposed that us Jewish People are to let ourselves be destroyed? Or do we have the right to defend our homes and our loved ones from such people that would strap on a bomb to their waist or chest and walk into a small business and denonate that bomb? I do not see the how a military strike is a Terrorist act when it is in defense of Our homes and our people?

 

[CanuckMA]

Give it up Mark. I've long given up trying to have reasonable arguments with those people. Until they accept the fact that Israel is NOT going away and that we will defend our borders, it's useless to argue.

 

[Mark Weiser]

I understand especially using interesting adjectives to descripe those actions by certain people. May the Peace of HaShem rest fully upon you and your household.