Another Question from Facebook (ITF HQ Korea)

[TrueJim]

Over in the Rise of the Kwans group on Facebook there's a reference (via MartialTalks own Chris Spiller) to the ITF HQ Korea organization http://itfofficial.org

Rather than ask the question there (and likely get more noise than signal) I thought I'd ask the question here instead: what's the story behind the genesis of this organization?

 

[Earl Weiss]

Looking at the website gave me more questions than answers. Need to do more investigating. I know Mr. tibollo was Counsel to the ITF before the split and remained counsel to the son. Master Jin is part of the son's org. Master Stanley and GM Steiner were part of the son's group but left and don't know if they have returned. Then the Tul Tour is highlighted which Master Vitale closely associated with ITF NK is a promotor of along with Mr. Anslow who i believe was non aligned to any ITF ... so more questions.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Looking at the website gave me more questions than answers. Need to do more investigating. I know Mr. tibollo was Counsel to the ITF before the split and remained counsel to the son. Master Jin is part of the son's org. Master Stanley and GM Steiner were part of the son's group but left and don't know if they have returned. Then the Tul Tour is highlighted which Master Vitale closely associated with ITF NK is a promotor of along with Mr. Anslow who i believe was non aligned to any ITF ... so more questions.

Master Weiss, for what it's worth Oh, Chang Jin is not part of GM Choi's group and was expelled 5 years ago (in 2011).

Both Master Stanley and GM Steiner left GM Choi many years ago and formed the International Chang Hun Taekwon-Do Federation together (along with others). It is my understanding, however, that both Master Stanley and GM Steiner ended up leaving the ICTF, too. They did not return to the ITF under GM Choi. A quick check on their respective websites reveals no indication that they are affiliated with "ITF HQ Korea" but that doesn't necessarily mean anything since they don't appear to have been recently updated. I will say, however, that at one point there was at least one very senior ranking black belt under GM Choi listed on that site (or a previous one run by that group) who was in no way, shape, or form affiliated with them and had to contact them to remove his picture.

Pax,

Chris

 

[TrueJim]

...and had to contact them to remove his picture.

Wow!

 

[chrispillertkd]

Caveat emptor...

Pax,

Chris

 

[Earl Weiss]

Master Weiss, for what it's worth Oh, Chang Jin is not part of GM Choi's group and was expelled 5 years ago (in 2011).

Sorry, guess I found some old stuff on the net.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Over in the Rise of the Kwans group on Facebook there's a reference (via MartialTalks own Chris Spiller) to the ITF HQ Korea organization http://itfofficial.org

Rather than ask the question there (and likely get more noise than signal) I thought I'd ask the question here instead: what's the story behind the genesis of this organization?

Well, from what I can piece together (from the Net and speaking with some) the President of that org. Master Jin, who as Mr. Spiller notes was formerly part of the son's group, registered for legal protections for the ITF name and various other things in SK. For whatever reasons (and I am sure there are many) various former ITF members and even non members but those who do the Chang Hon system have gravitated to this org. Naturally use of the ITF name has lead to legal action by at least the Son's group and perhaps more, however it seems that so far this group has prevailed for how it uses it in SK where it got the protection. Issuance of certificates is apparently another issue awaiting resolution.

They will accept members from other ITFs allowing dual membership so to speak which is prohibited by ITF V and perhaps others as well. (I will let members of those groups address that issue for them) Under President Tran Quan ITF V seemed to be having a policy of inclusiveness and welcoming back of former ITF members. This seemd to die with him. perhaps this group is filling that void.

On the website GM Steiner appears to be the only 9th Dan.

 

[TrueJim]

So much to unpack about this!

• It's really interesting to see somebody trying to lead an ITF organization from within South Korea of all places, given the history of South Korea, General Choi, and the kukki movement. Maybe I'm wrong, but that alone seems to require a certain chutzpah.
• And then when the world already has 3 ITFs to choose from, to go and create yet ANOTHER organization and call it ITF as well -- more chutzpah. I mean, one couldn't pick one's own unique name, like the GTF did?
• And then to bill one's ITF this late in the game as the "official" ITF, "the supreme authority of the Taekwon-Do movement", when the other ITFs predate you by more than a decade, and each have a much more credible claim to the General Choi lineage -- triple chutzpah.

I'm not saying it's a bad organization or that it shouldn't succeed -- I really wouldn't know. But they've certainly got some nerve -- and that's just me speaking as an outsider.

 

[Earl Weiss]

So much to unpack about this!

• 
  
• And then when the world already has 3 ITFs to choose from, to go and create yet ANOTHER organization and call it ITF as well

I am not certain of the history of this group but it may have been around for quite a while, just under the radar.

 

[TrueJim]

For what it's worth, the website domain name was registered in November 2014. | ICANN WHOIS But of course the organization could have been flying under the radar before then.

 

[chrispillertkd]

So much to unpack about this!

• It's really interesting to see somebody trying to lead an ITF organization from within South Korea of all places, given the history of South Korea, General Choi, and the kukki movement. Maybe I'm wrong, but that alone seems to require a certain chutzpah.

I'm not really sire what you mean by "chutzpah" in this context. The "ITF HQ Korea" started out as a national organization for the ITF under GM Choi, Jung Hwa. It was, in other words, a member organization of the ITF. The ITF under GM Choi has had a presence in South Korea since the early 2000's and has held it World Championships there in 2004 and 2010, and took part in the 2008 World Taekwondo Festival in South Korea. While Mr. Oh was involved in this organization, which was then known as "ITF-Korea" it was all under the auspices of GM Choi and the ITF.

While the ITF had been effectively outlawed in SK for many years it is now back - and has been for over a decade - and GM Choi has been to SK several times after being persona non grata for a very long time.

Even before Mr. Oh's expulsion from the ITF there was another national organization in South Korea under GM Choi because of the difficulty some people were having with the original group.

And then when the world already has 3 ITFs to choose from, to go and create yet ANOTHER organization and call it ITF as well -- more chutzpah. I mean, one couldn't pick one's own unique name, like the GTF did?

This I agree with wholeheartedly. The name "ITF HQ Korea" is so close to "ITF" that one can easily be confused that it is, in fact, the administrative headquarters of the ITF. This would be a mistake.

I do find it interesting that this group's logo is almost certainly purposefully modeled on the WTF logo.

And then to bill one's ITF this late in the game as the "official" ITF, "the supreme authority of the Taekwon-Do movement", when the other ITFs predate you by more than a decade, and each have a much more credible claim to the General Choi lineage -- triple chutzpah.
I'm not saying it's a bad organization or that it shouldn't succeed -- I really wouldn't know. But they've certainly got some nerve -- and that's just me speaking as an outsider.

I don't disagree.

Pax,

Chris

 

[TrueJim]

The "ITF HQ Korea" started out as a national organization for the ITF under GM Choi, Jung Hwa. It was, in other words, a member organization of the ITF...

Ahhh....so they were already in Korea, and then just detached themselves from their former ITF. I was thinking they had decided to set up a new ITF, and had decided "might as well set it up in Korea" -- which seemed gutsy -- like if UK decided to set up a new NFL, and do so in the US!

 

[TrueJim]

So the picture looks something like this?

 

[chrispillertkd]

That chart is pretty accurate. The only changes I'd really make are the subsequent relocation of the headquarters for the ITF under GM Choi (which is now located in the UK), GM Pablo Trajtenberg becoming the new president of the group under GM Tran Trieu Quan after his death, and Master Ri, Yong Song becoming the new president of the group under Chang Ung (who has become Honorary Life President).

Further back on the timeline you might consider putting 1953 as the date Gen. Choi founded the Oh Do Kwan with help from GM Nam, Tae Hi and 1955 as the year he coined the term "Taekwon-Do."

Pax,

Chris

 

[TrueJim]

 

[Earl Weiss]

I think the 2001 entry contains a serious flaw. In Rimini, 2001 CJH was named to succeed General Choi after expiration of a 2 year term IF General Choi stepped down after 2 years. Immediately after the congress in Italy I was told by someone who attended that when the resolution passed, CJH immediately asked his father for a commitment that he would in fact step down after 2 years and the request was met with silence at which time Tibollo who chaired the meeting called for a recess so the son and father could work things out. Recess was called and they headed in opposite directions. At a special congress called about 6 months later the chair refused to recognize the contingent supporting CJH (no point in debating if this was correct or not) and the resolution saying he would succeed his father in 2003 was rescinded. At this time CJH and his contingent formed his ITF.. So, it was not the original ITF that was relocated, (nor was he president elect or whatever that means.) . Only the son's faction.was relocated.

 

[TrueJim]

Fair enough. It's tough to find a pithy wording that accurately reflects all that. I put "president-elect" as shorthand for the longer explanation: "CHH would serve the first two years of the six year term and then CJH would step in as president". Even the word "rescinded" bothered me as I'm not sure it's the most accurate word choice. I'll noodle on this and see if I can figure out a better short description. If anybody has any suggestions I'm happy to incorporate them!