Another ATA 5 year old black belt

miguksaram

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Given that the martial arts had not been a huge part of Korean culture for probably a couple of centuries, probably more, prior to the occupation, I think that you're asking the wrong question.
Again, they had the martial arts, but it was military based not style or systematic based like Karate we see. Depending on which dynasty we are talking about, most people were born into their roles. So if you were born into a military family, chances are you would be learning martial arts and becoming a soldier/officer. If you were born into a scholastic family chances are you would be a teacher or government official. So martial arts were always there. It was through strategic martial arts that Korea was able to fend off many invaders such as the Hun, Chinese and even earlier Japanese invasions. They even, at one point, stopped US Admiral Perry from docking. It was then that Perry went over to Japan and forced his way there.
 

VictorV

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let me guess, the only thing you consider "real" is KKW certified WTF style ......... /eyeroll

if you take it personal, thats YOUR problem, not mine.

Thing is, reading your posts, you come across as hating the entire korean culture and that you actively LOATHE TKD. I'm not a fan of TKD, but even to me, you seem to go overboard. It's one thing to be critical of an art for making unfounded claims, and another to call an entire people thieves and liars. By extension of your logic, the U.S. is nothing but thieves and liars.
 

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Twin Fist

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they should have given credit to the source and not have published a fake history

Given that the martial arts had not been a huge part of Korean culture for probably a couple of centuries, probably more, prior to the occupation, I think that you're asking the wrong question.

I think that the question is this: The Japanese made judo and kendo a part of Korean culture during the occupation, and Koreans living in Japan and returning to Korea with the things that they had learned in Japan was also a part of Korean culture. Why should they not incorporate those things into post-occupation Korean culture?
 

Twin Fist

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then pay attention to what i actually said, not your impressions

i said, IN ENGLISH that i loved TKD i just didnt like what some people were doing to it, and i hate the people that lie about it's origins

i dont care what you THINK do not blame me for your guess as to what i think when you ignore what i actually say.....

Thing is, reading your posts, you come across as hating the entire korean culture and that you actively LOATHE TKD. I'm not a fan of TKD, but even to me, you seem to go overboard. It's one thing to be critical of an art for making unfounded claims, and another to call an entire people thieves and liars. By extension of your logic, the U.S. is nothing but thieves and liars.
 

Twin Fist

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this isnt about me

back on subject

why doesnt the ATA ban this sort of thing, or at least set a minimum age for bb?

A) money
B) money
c) money

you get one guess
 

VictorV

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then pay attention to what i actually said, not your impressions

i said, IN ENGLISH that i loved TKD i just didnt like what some people were doing to it, and i hate the people that lie about it's origins

i dont care what you THINK do not blame me for your guess as to what i think when you ignore what i actually say.....

I've read what you said. A lot of what you've said. The ONLY thing you've been consistent in, is your hate of anything Korean. Again, there's a BIG difference between saying that you don't like the way things are done and saying that an entire culture is nothing but thieves and liars. My guess is based on your posts and the way you come across in them. If you feel like we (and apparently there are a lot) take things out of context, mayhap you should really reconsider the way you post.
 

Daniel Sullivan

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Again, they had the martial arts, but it was military based not style or systematic based like Karate we see. Depending on which dynasty we are talking about, most people were born into their roles. So if you were born into a military family, chances are you would be learning martial arts and becoming a soldier/officer. If you were born into a scholastic family chances are you would be a teacher or government official. So martial arts were always there. It was through strategic martial arts that Korea was able to fend off many invaders such as the Hun, Chinese and even earlier Japanese invasions. They even, at one point, stopped US Admiral Perry from docking. It was then that Perry went over to Japan and forced his way there.
Outside of the military is what I meant. :)
 

Gemini

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Given that the martial arts had not been a huge part of Korean culture for probably a couple of centuries, probably more, prior to the occupation, I think that you're asking the wrong question.

I think that the question is this: The Japanese made judo and kendo a part of Korean culture during the occupation, and Koreans living in Japan and returning to Korea with the things that they had learned in Japan was also a part of Korean culture. Why should they not incorporate those things into post-occupation Korean culture?

Actually not entirely true. Given that they have found books such as the Mooyedobotongji shows that martial culture was not wiped out. Little by little they are finding other historical documents all over the world that pre-dates Japanese occupation. The problem is that when most of us think of martial arts we tend to think stylistic systems. Korea did have a martial art culture which was military based. They had very little H2H and more weapon work.

From what I've read, when Korea had it's "revolt" in 1919, Japan forcefully banned all things Korean and made all things Japanese mandatory. I had to write a paper on Hap Ki Do so seeing it in a historical light made me a bit more appreciative of what the Korean government did after WWII.

Thank you all for the responses. That's been a curiosity of mine for some time. Though I do enjoy history and place a value on it, it seems Korea's is more debatable than most, making it harder for me to follow. Admittedly, my main interest in martial arts is knowing that when I hit you, you're going to bleed. Profusely. Who invented the punch is a distant second.
 

miguksaram

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Outside of the military is what I meant. :)
True, very few families would practice martial arts. Surprisingly it was mostly the upper class that practiced as it was required of them. Again that training dealt mostly in weapon work more than H2H. Kungsul/do (Archery) and Kumsul/do (Swordsmanship) were mostly practice by the upper class.
 

miguksaram

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Gemini said:
Thank you all for the responses. That's been a curiosity of mine for some time. Though I do enjoy history and place a value on it, it seems Korea's is more debatable than most, making it harder for me to follow.
What I have found is the more I read Korean general history, the more the debatable parts become less debatable.

Admittedly, my main interest in martial arts is knowing that when I hit you, you're going to bleed. Profusely. Who invented the punch is a distant second.
Love this! ha.ha.ha.ha..
 

miguksaram

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this isnt about me

back on subject

why doesnt the ATA ban this sort of thing, or at least set a minimum age for bb?

A) money
B) money
c) money

you get one guess
I agree...money is a huge motivator. Parents like to see little Johnny and Suzy get that black cloth around their waste to mark one more thing off their bucket list. I would be surprised if they kept the 5 year old kid in the classes past another year or so.
 

Kong Soo Do

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I agree...money is a huge motivator. Parents like to see little Johnny and Suzy get that black cloth around their waste to mark one more thing off their bucket list. I would be surprised if they kept the 5 year old kid in the classes past another year or so.

And this is a very unfortunate thing to occur. Perhaps it is a sign of our fast-food, microwave society. Perhaps I'm just to old school. But I much prefered it when it took 3 months to learn just the opening movements of one kata rather than learning one form per colored belt rank without really understanding what was being taught. Rather than being a benefit to the child, it actually cheated him.
 

miguksaram

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And this is a very unfortunate thing to occur. Perhaps it is a sign of our fast-food, microwave society. Perhaps I'm just to old school. But I much prefered it when it took 3 months to learn just the opening movements of one kata rather than learning one form per colored belt rank without really understanding what was being taught. Rather than being a benefit to the child, it actually cheated him.
I do believe it is greatly due to the instant gratification and never fail mindset that we have placed in our society. Some Instructors, not just ATA, have since revamped the arts to meet this type of demand instead of getting the parents to understand that the martial arts are not like baseball or soccer.

While I have no problem with schools making money, in fact I wish there were more successful schools out there, I cannot help but wonder if there is a way for them to be successful with out the constant belt milling. So there has to be a way to maintain integrity and still make darn good money.
 

Daniel Sullivan

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Not when you call it retarded and the pioneers thieves and liars...it is hard to see the love.
Actually, he didn't call it retarded. He said that it is perceived as retarded by practitioners of other martial arts. Which, while not a glowing endorsement, and frankly, incorrect, is not the same as calling the art itself retarded.

I do find that there are people and schools that look down their noses at other arts. Such people and places exist in greater or lesser concentrations depending upon where you are. Perhaps his area is home to more such places?

I've encountered a few in my area. I simply remove them from my 'go by to train with' list and move on.
 

Gemini

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I agree...money is a huge motivator. Parents like to see little Johnny and Suzy get that black cloth around their waste to mark one more thing off their bucket list. I would be surprised if they kept the 5 year old kid in the classes past another year or so.
True enough, but the reality is, we don't know. Prodigies are rare, but they're out there and to find them, we have to weed through the superficial. The same is true is every other sport or activity. I've always been more tolerant of the less skilled in search of the rare find. Give them all support and encouragement; the posers will weed themselves out sooner or later. How many times have we seen the kid who had no chance of amounting to anything, defy the odds and surpass everyone's expectations. I doubt there's a single instructor here who's never witnessed it at some point. All because someone didn't give up on them.

All my kids practice Taekwondo. My youngest who started in the dojang at 4, though wasn't a black belt at 5, did receive his black belt at a very young age. Forgetting the fact that his technique was more effective at 7 than many adults, I see in him a grand master at 70 with a lifetime of experience. It's become the very fabric he's made of. Who am I to say someone's child is anything less. Time will tell; not me. This is nothing more than a snapshot of a child's life. Let's not make too much of it.
 

miguksaram

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Actually, he didn't call it retarded. He said that it is perceived as retarded by practitioners of other martial arts. Which, while not a glowing endorsement, and frankly, incorrect, is not the same as calling the art itself retarded.
True, but he followed up with this statement: "I dont like it either, but i will not bury my head in the sand and pretend it isnt true." which tells me he agrees with the statement.

I do find that there are people and schools that look down their noses at other arts. Such people and places exist in greater or lesser concentrations depending upon where you are. Perhaps his area is home to more such places?

I've encountered a few in my area. I simply remove them from my 'go by to train with' list and move on.
Exactly, I have encountered those people too. More times than not they have only trained with a couple people from the art and based their opinion off of that. So their opinion really doesn't bother me at all.
 

Gemini

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I cannot help but wonder if there is a way for them to be successful with out the constant belt milling. So there has to be a way to maintain integrity and still make darn good money.
Probably one of the most sought after answers in martial arts. It's also the reason I refuse to open a public school that can only afford to stay open because I lowered my standards. I'm fortunate that I don't have to give someone a belt to keep them motivated or can't ask someone to leave because they lack the commitment I demand. we feed off each other. Watching those we respect and admire having to constantly wrestle with compromise is not a pleasant sight.
 

Kong Soo Do

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So there has to be a way to maintain integrity and still make darn good money.

Gemini said:
Probably one of the most sought after answers in martial arts. It's also the reason I refuse to open a public school that can only afford to stay open because I lowered my standards. I'm fortunate that I don't have to give someone a belt to keep them motivated or can't ask someone to leave because they lack the commitment I demand. we feed off each other. Watching those we respect and admire having to constantly wrestle with compromise is not a pleasant sight.

This is probaby going to get me in all kinds of trouble, but....perhaps....just perhaps the martial arts weren't really suppose to be a commercial venture? Perhaps if money wasn't a primary motivating factor, then some/most/all of the 'stuff' that we complain about in the martial arts wouldn't exist?

Just tossing it out there....
 
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