An idea for a possible partial solution to our gas troubles

Bob Hubbard

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I had a thought during dinner today, and am tossing it out here for discussion.

I think rather than sending out dinky checks that will be spent quickly, the US Federal government should buy us new cars.

Yeah, you read that right.

Here's the idea.

Uncle Sam will buy your gas guzzler and give you a shiny new hybrid vehicle or a credit towards one.

Here's how it works.

You must own a -functional- currently insured and on the road vehicle that gets under 20 MPG. This can be a $500 beater or a 08 Hummer. Doesn't matter.

You take your gas guzzler to a participating hybrid dealer, who will take your vehicle (which is scrapped), and your government issued credit, and they will give you a hybrid vehicle up to $30,000.

This will do several things.
- It will remove permanently a large number of inefficient and environmentally bad vehicles from use.
- It will boost the adoption of hybrid technology helping to bring the costs down as higher use = lower production costs.
- It will diminish our use of fuel and diminish our environmental impact.
- It will put hybrid tech within the reach of many who otherwise would not be able to afford it.

There can be some caps placed on the program such as an income limit (say must make less than $50,000/yr), you must be the owner of the trade in, and have owned it at least 6 months, trade in must be functional, and in-use, number of allowed trade ins limited to 1 per family, etc. Car must be new, not used, all dealer discounts and promotions must be honored, no special surcharges can be added, etc. In other words, treat buyer like any other buyer. Any difference between final sale and the $30k grant is not redeemable for cash or credits, and anything over it is the buyers responsibility. Offer can't be combined with another grant. Qualifying hybrids will get a minimum of 35 MPG city. Sales Tax on these sales will be waved.

Here's the numbers:
United States federal budget, 2009 - $3.10 trillion
Cost of a fully loaded 2009 Toyota Prius : $22,700
Cost of a fully loaded 2009 Honda Civic Hybrid: $27,987

Take $15 Billion out of the budget for this program.
$15 Billion buys 660,792 Prius's.
$15 Billion is .48 percent of the budget. It's a drop in the cash bucket.

There are approximately 62 million registered vehicles in the U.S. at the current time and appox. 6.4 million unregistered functioning vehicles. Roughly 32% of those two numbers combined would account for Semi-Trucks, construction, heavy machinery vehicles. Stats accurate as of 02/01/05.

Now, as I said, unregistered and just registered, and non-functional vehicles wouldn't qualify.

Now, you wouldn't have to buy a Prius. Any car manufacturer who offered a hybrid that met the MPG limits would qualify.


In a year, the U.S. consumes about 146 billion gallons of gas.
Gas at $2.50/gallon = $365 Billion
Gas at $3.50/gallon = $511 Billion ($146 Billion more spent on gas)
Gas at $4.00/gallon = $584 Billion (another $73 Billion)

I think I'd rather see the Fed's spend $15 Billion of our tax dollars than give the oil companies another $73 Billion.


Opinions, thoughts, etc?
:asian:
 

Twin Fist

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crap thats brilliant.

That is freaking utterly brilliant

I drive a minivan now, cuz my truck gets horrible mileage.

What MPG would the hybrids be required to get in order to be ok for the exchange? ah i see it now, minimum of 35 MPG and must use hybrid tech.


hmmmm
 
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Bob Hubbard

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A possible place to get the funding for this is the oil companies themselves.

They are reporting record multi-billion dollar profits each quarter. So, hit them with a tax of a few billion each and strip the of the grants and whatnot they get and use that money instead to fund the car program.

Here are some more numbers.

Car gets 15 MPG.
You drive 12,000 miles in the year.
You burn 800 gallons of gas.
If gas is $3.50 per gallon that means you spend $2,800 a year on gas.

Car gets 35 MPG
You drive 12,000 miles in the year.
You burn 343 gallons of gas.
If gas is $3.50 per gallon that means you spend $1,200 a year on gas. A savings of $1,600!

Car gets 45 MPG
You drive 12,000 miles in the year.
You burn 267 gallons of gas.
If gas is $3.50 per gallon that means you spend $935 a year on gas. Thats another $265 saved, for a total of $1,865!

What's that add up to?
If 1 mere 700,000 vehicles getting 15 MPG were repaced with ones getting 45 MPG, it would save US consumers 373.1 Million gallons of gas, for a cash savings of 1.3 Billion dollars each year (if gas is $3.50/gal).

With gas prices rising, the program would pay for itself in under a decade.
 

MA-Caver

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Bob H. for president!

As long as I get a hybrid vehicle that can go anywhere my jeep can go... I'd be fine with a trade in.

Ought to write that proposal down in detail and all of that and send it to the president (or the next one) and the dept. of energy. Who knows?

"...in every universe, there's one man who makes a difference!"
 

Tez3

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Price of a Toyota Prius here is $35,554-$41,554 depending on model specs.
Honda Civic Hybrid $34210 -$39210

There will be some special offers/deals offered by salesrooms but that's basicall how much dearer our cars are. it's mostly tax plus we are taxed on the fuel. a fair few people have had their cars converted to what we call gas..propane. this way they can use either propane or petrol/diesel.
Our fuel is over a Pound a litre, doing sums is not my forte (makes my head hurt and tbh I really don't want to know how much a gallon it costs!) so I'll let you work it out. There's 8 pints in a UK gallon, 2.2 pints in litre.
 

terryl965

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The only problem I see is this one the government will not do what makes sense to the general public. So this would never fly and beside it does not help the rich so why would it be.

On a side note driving my wife sunfire it gets 35 mpg and man I miss the van, I am big and need room. Diet diet diet so the sunfire will fit me.
 

CoryKS

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Like so many have discovered in the past, life's problems are very easily solved as long as you take away personal freedom. I'm sure you will be a benevolent dictator, though.
 
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Bob Hubbard

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Like so many have discovered in the past, life's problems are very easily solved as long as you take away personal freedom. I'm sure you will be a benevolent dictator, though.
:)

That's the nice thing here. It doesn't take away anyone's freedoms.
 

Brian R. VanCise

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You know Bob you are definatley onto something.
icon6.gif
 
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Bob Hubbard

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Price of a Toyota Prius here is $35,554-$41,554 depending on model specs.
Honda Civic Hybrid $34210 -$39210

There will be some special offers/deals offered by salesrooms but that's basicall how much dearer our cars are. it's mostly tax plus we are taxed on the fuel. a fair few people have had their cars converted to what we call gas..propane. this way they can use either propane or petrol/diesel.
Our fuel is over a Pound a litre, doing sums is not my forte (makes my head hurt and tbh I really don't want to know how much a gallon it costs!) so I'll let you work it out. There's 8 pints in a UK gallon, 2.2 pints in litre.

UK Gallons:
A British imperial capacity measure (liquid or dry) equal to 4 quarts or 4.545 liters.

1 gallons (UK) = 1.20094 gallons (US Liquid)


Exchange Rate
1 GBP = 1.98208 USD


Price of gas:
1 Pound a litre = 4.55 GBP/9.02 USD per UK Gallon

Cost of a gallon (US) $7.52 USD
 
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Bob Hubbard

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Bob H. for president!

As long as I get a hybrid vehicle that can go anywhere my jeep can go... I'd be fine with a trade in.

Ought to write that proposal down in detail and all of that and send it to the president (or the next one) and the dept. of energy. Who knows?

"...in every universe, there's one man who makes a difference!"
I'm not eligible. I'd have to own a car, LOL!
 

Sukerkin

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My only question as a bone fide petrol-head, is:

"Will classics be exempt from this ruling?"

If you have some American equivalent of a Chav who just happens to inherit a C1 Corvette, will he be prohibited from getting that destroyed so that he can have a new Prius (shortly followed by his being beheaded by me for perpetrating the myth that Prius's are environmentally friendly)?

My follow up question as an environmentally minded person is that why is it that the fact that hybrid vehicles are more polluting in the long-term rather than less not being given proper media attention (it's to do with the batteries rather than emmsions)?
 

CoryKS

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:)

That's the nice thing here. It doesn't take away anyone's freedoms.

Your proposal has the gov't offering me a car which is a few thousand more than the one I have. Even ignoring depreciation for a moment, it's clear that somebody else is paying for that extra $$ worth of car. Don't you consider that taking away from someone else?

And then there's this:
They are reporting record multi-billion dollar profits each quarter. So, hit them with a tax of a few billion each and strip the of the grants and whatnot they get and use that money instead to fund the car program.

Taxes aren't magical things that arise from nothing. You don't just hit a corporation with a multibillion dollar tax and expect nothing to happen except for a big payout. Those profits may be going toward finding new sources of oil. They may be going toward finding new methods of extracting oil. This could kill the corporation. Or the shareholders' desire to fund it. Or the employees' desire to work there. Or maybe the company decides to relocate to a less hostile nation and maybe see if they can get a better deal from China.

Human nature is like water. It flows where it wants and when you try to block it, it flows off in another direction. Only way you get everybody to do it the way you want is to put on your Mussolini hat and start digging trenches.
 
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Bob Hubbard

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My only question as a bone fide petrol-head, is:

"Will classics be exempt from this ruling?"

If you have some American equivalent of a Chav who just happens to inherit a C1 Corvette, will he be prohibited from getting that destroyed so that he can have a new Prius (shortly followed by his being beheaded by me for perpetrating the myth that Prius's are environmentally friendly)?

My follow up question as an environmentally minded person is that why is it that the fact that hybrid vehicles are more polluting in the long-term rather than less not being given proper media attention (it's to do with the batteries rather than emmsions)?
With the intent of this program to be the removal of older inefficient vehicles, I don't know if that would work, but such decisions would be upto the "experts" to hash out.

As to the batteries, I would hope that a rising demand would improve efficiency etc.
 
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Bob Hubbard

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Your proposal has the gov't offering me a car which is a few thousand more than the one I have. Even ignoring depreciation for a moment, it's clear that somebody else is paying for that extra $$ worth of car. Don't you consider that taking away from someone else?

Not really. There are a number of ways to fund this.
- Divert some funds from the military. US military budget in 2007 was something around $440 Billion. Pull a Billion or 2 out of that.
- Estimates of the value of federal subsidies to the domestic oil industry range from $31.6 billion in public dollars for 2005-2009 to an amazing $39 billion. Stop subsidizing them and the program is funded and more.
- Ask auto makers to participate and offer cars at a discounted rate. This could be worth a billion or 2 on it's own.


Mind you, this idea isn't intended to replace your 2007 Land Rover with a 2009 Prius. It's to pull that 85 Chevy tank off the road.

And then there's this:


Taxes aren't magical things that arise from nothing. You don't just hit a corporation with a multibillion dollar tax and expect nothing to happen except for a big payout. Those profits may be going toward finding new sources of oil. They may be going toward finding new methods of extracting oil. This could kill the corporation. Or the shareholders' desire to fund it. Or the employees' desire to work there. Or maybe the company decides to relocate to a less hostile nation and maybe see if they can get a better deal from China.

A tax doesn't have to happen. We can simply ask them. Mobil and Chevron were making $4-5 Billion every 3 months in 2007. Ask them to each toss a billion or 3 a year into the program, with the caveat they can't tack it on the back end. Mobil was bragging about the paltry $500 million or so it's spent on alternate energy. This is a bigger number to brag over. Considering the current level of anger towards them, the good will alone might be enough of an enticement.

Human nature is like water. It flows where it wants and when you try to block it, it flows off in another direction. Only way you get everybody to do it the way you want is to put on your Mussolini hat and start digging trenches.

Ehh.....I'm more partial to a tricorn. :D I do understand your points, they're valid. I think though that we're creative enough that we can find a positive solution.
 

MA-Caver

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Bob Hubbard said:
Ehh.....I'm more partial to a tricorn. I do understand your points, they're valid. I think though that we're creative enough that we can find a positive solution.
Therein lies the problem. For the past 100 years we've BEEN creative enough. But the technology that has arisen from such creative thinking has been suppressed... or simply filed away for use at a later date.
Why we didn't try to $tep into high gear during the 70'$ $o called "energy-cri$i$" I'll never know. Mu$t've had $omething to do with money I gue$$.
 

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Barack Obama has said that Washington is where good ideas go to die.

Too many years of the Bush/Klinton Dark Ages have jaded me to the point where I think a President Hellary could suck the soul out of our FA's idea in no time flat.

Lessee........ Soon that will be the only way to get a new car....... a "car" bearing increasing resemblance to the Russian Lada...... the only way for a company to get its cars into the program will be, of course, to contribute to the Klintons..... then there will be all the taxes/fees/licenses....... and Super Fat Pig Environmental Destroyer taxes for anyone who doesn't want to play along...... wanna guess what the Bushes and Klintons will be riding around in after deciding Lada's are fit for the rest of us???

All ultimately leading to," Mr and Mrs America, turn them all in".
 

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Ehh.....I'm more partial to a tricorn. :D I do understand your points, they're valid. I think though that we're creative enough that we can find a positive solution.

Well I, for one, welcome our new pirate overlord. ;)

I'd settle for a decent public rail system. I enjoyed using DC's metro line while I was there, and even enjoyed the inevitable walk to get to my ultimate destination. And I'd love to be able to read during my commute time. For some reason, other drivers hate it when I do that now.
 

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Gee, Bob, you'd give us the choice? How generous. Here in California, we supposedly have the choice of what electric utility to buy our power from. The thing is, there is only PG&E in Fresno county, and even IF you chose to buy your power from SCE (So Cal Edison) you would have to pay a "transmission" fee for their power to come through PG&E's lines. There is a choice, but, there really isn't.
 

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