American King George II wants MORE private info ...

[heretic888]

Exactly. It's like playing a football game where only one side has to play by the rules and/or take penalties. Look Im not "for" pulling out fingernails, cutting off toes or burning out eyeballs or anything like that, but some of these bleeding hearts are calling leaving lights on, changing feeding times and making people stand/sit uncomfortably for a long time "torture" and thats plain crazy IMO.

So, in other words....

It's okay to do it because the evil terrorists did it first.

Genius!! Just become like our anarchic, law-snubbing, homocidal enemies!! That'll show 'em real "democracy"!!!

Or, y'know, you could stop taking pages from Machievelli's and Stalin's playbooks and realize that it is the fact we actually abide the laws we agree to that separates us from our enemies.

Oh, but I forgot. The ends justifies the means. Anything else is "crazy", right??

Good friggin' grief.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

This is more about "politics" than ethics. As if we are to believe the CIA was "nicer and gentler" during the Clinton administration. Right. If Georgie said we should give these guys hookers and steak dinners to get them to talk, some people would find an issue with it. Were arguing about "torture" of prisoners without even knowing what these interrogation techniques are. "If George wants it it MUST be something like flaying them alive with dull kitchen knives". So we all divide along our party biases and argue about something we have no knowledge of.

This is all about definition of terms. Make a guy sitting in a chair with short front legs "torture" and whats next? Using harsh language?

If my gvt lets another 9/11 happen and it was discovered that we could have found out about it but for some prisoners attorney refusing to let us talk to him, than our gvt has failed us. These guys arent criminals like the corner drug dealer and us thinking they should be treated the same is going to result in blood.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

BTW when was the last time we EVER had an enemy treat our captured servicemen as humanely as we treated theirs? The Germans in WWII? Theres some pretty nasty stories from that era too. While we brought ours back to the states and even let them out on "pass" from the camps from time to time. Prisoners at Ft. Drum NY were allowed to go into town to watch movies.

 

[heretic888]

This is more about "politics" than ethics.

To you and your ilk, maybe. Not to me.

If Clinton did it, it was wrong. If Lincoln did it, it was wrong. If Washington did it, it was wrong. I really don't care who did it, as it is a fundamental betrayal of our country's principles.

My background is in developmental psychology. The "well, he did it first!" line of argument is an interesting one, as it is the kind of moral reasoning (a la Kohlbergian schemes) that one would expect from a grade school student. Personally, I'd like to think that most adults are somewhat more ethically mature than your average ten year old, but I could be wrong.

Our country was founded on postconventional moral principles, the assumption that there are certain universal values and humanistic notions that apply to all people. The kind of rationale you are describing is closer to how Osama bin Laden thinks than how Thomas Jefferson thought. Remember that.

Laterz.

 

[heretic888]

BTW when was the last time we EVER had an enemy treat our captured servicemen as humanely as we treated theirs?

Perhaps I didn't make my previous post clear. I shall clarify.

I don't care who does it or when they do it. Unethical practices like torture and slavery don't become okey-dokey just because it has historical precedent. This is an Appeal to Tradition, plain and simple.

 

[Don Roley]

Exactly. It's like playing a football game where only one side has to play by the rules and/or take penalties. Look Im not "for" pulling out fingernails, cutting off toes or burning out eyeballs or anything like that, but some of these bleeding hearts are calling leaving lights on, changing feeding times and making people stand/sit uncomfortably for a long time "torture" and thats plain crazy IMO.

Well, you see you have fallen into the trap that some people have laid out.

Take a look at what is being discussed. It is not things like attaching electrodes to people's gonads. It is not even slapping people around.

What we are talking about is the same type of thing that we make our own soldiers go through as part of normal training. There are at least two people who passed US Army Ranger training on MartialTalk. You want to talk to them about sleep deprivation????

These are not things that you lay out and threaten to do unless people talk. When they happen to you, you are not crippled for life. The martial artists in this discussion go through rougher treatment every week and get more bruises than these guys ever will in US custody. But you are not in your best condition to play games with the interogator. You slip up. You make mistakes. You reveal information that you did not intend to!!!!

That is why the interogators want to be able to use these tactics. They do not frighten people and are not torture like they have been made out to be. But they do make people make mistakes, lower their guard and reveal information that they would not if they were totally rested and at the top of their game.

 

[michaeledward]

Well, you see you have fallen into the trap that some people have laid out.

Take a look at what is being discussed. It is not things like attaching electrodes to people's gonads. It is not even slapping people around.

What we are talking about is the same type of thing that we make our own soldiers go through as part of normal training. There are at least two people who passed US Army Ranger training on MartialTalk. You want to talk to them about sleep deprivation????

These are not things that you lay out and threaten to do unless people talk. When they happen to you, you are not crippled for life. The martial artists in this discussion go through rougher treatment every week and get more bruises than these guys ever will in US custody. But you are not in your best condition to play games with the interogator. You slip up. You make mistakes. You reveal information that you did not intend to!!!!

That is why the interogators want to be able to use these tactics. They do not frighten people and are not torture like they have been made out to be. But they do make people make mistakes, lower their guard and reveal information that they would not if they were totally rested and at the top of their game.

Don Roley,

What evidence do you offer that what the CIA extrodinary methods are not torture?

You claim it is not electrocution. But what evidence do you have for that? You claim that it is only loud noise and uncomfortable positions, but what evidence do you have for that?

How do you know it is not castration, chopping off fingers, pulling out teeth, burning eyeballs? Where is your evidence that in secret locations around the globe, the CIA is not doing these things, and worse?

Why are people in our custody being transferred to Egypt and Moracco?

For 60 years, the Geneva Conventions have been a standard against which all countries are measured (Except for the United States - Apparently, Mr. Snow stated yesterday we have never been subject to the Geneva Conventions). For 60 years, they have not needed to be 'clarified'.

What the President is asking for is the authorization to torture people in custody. - He gave himself that wiggle room earlier this year with a signing statement - And he continues to demand that congress grant him that authority now - before the election, under pressure of election, not with time for reasonable thought and discussion. (We has this same pressure four years ago - see Authorization for Use of Military Force in Iraq).

The President is fighting for the right to torture whomever he feels needs to be tortured. Call it what it is.

And on this issue .... I'm going to trust soldiers who actually showed up for service, and not just for dentist appointments.

The gall of this administration to claim that Colin Powell is "confused".

The gall of this adminsistration to claim that Senator McCain is "confused" on the subject of torture.

 

[Flying Crane]

The gall of this administration to claim that Colin Powell is "confused".

The gall of this adminsistration to claim that Senator McCain is "confused" on the subject of torture.

Yah, I'd say the fact that Senator McCain and Colin Powell are in opposition to the President's desires speaks volumes.

 

[Don Roley]

Don Roley,

What evidence do you offer that what the CIA extrodinary methods are not torture?

What proof do you have that they are?

I am going by the descriptions of the methods being discussed and that the military has been accused of.

I am not willing to start from the assumption that the US goverment eats babies and then try to argrue that they do not. If there is some valid proof that the US military does things, then I will look at them. Otherwise I feel we will be right back into the conspiracy theory type of argument where we have to prove that what is being accused is not the proof instead of asking for proof of the accusations.

 

[michaeledward]

And are you then willing to ignore death certificates for detained prisoners that list the cause of death "Homicide"?

Throughout the invasion and occupations of Afghanistan and Iraq, detainees have been dying while in American Custody. Early official findings of Homicide were found in Afghanistan in December 2002.

And these are the prisoners we know about .... There are still prisoners that we don't know exist. The CIA black sites program remains in operation.

 

[Makalakumu]

In 1976 two CIA programs leaked to the public. MKULTRA, MKDELTA and Project MONARCH were programs that tested mind control and torture techniques on American citizens. These programs combined physical, mental, and sexual torture with a number of drugs that were designed to bring the person to various states of consciousness.

According to the documents obtained, these program had been going on for 25 years and involved 1000s of people.

Americans everywhere were shocked and they demanded that Congress shut this stuff down (Ted Kennedy actually spearheaded this effort). The CIA made a big show that they were complying, but instead moved the program to Canada...with the permission of the Canadian government, btw. In 1978, the Canadian people found out that this was happening and forced the people who were doing this out of their country.

Did the CIA move these programs to yet another country? Are they using the techniques that they practiced on American citizens to obtain the information? If so, then the detainees are being fed a panalopy of drugs while being beaten, raped, sleep deprived, and whatever other god aweful thing these people cooked up in the last 28 years.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Otherwise I feel we will be right back into the conspiracy theory type of argument where we have to prove that what is being accused is not the proof instead of asking for proof of the accusations.

Here we go.

 

[Fu_Bag]

What proof do you have that they are?

I am going by the descriptions of the methods being discussed and that the military has been accused of.

I am not willing to start from the assumption that the US goverment eats babies and then try to argrue that they do not. If there is some valid proof that the US military does things, then I will look at them. Otherwise I feel we will be right back into the conspiracy theory type of argument where we have to prove that what is being accused is not the proof instead of asking for proof of the accusations.

It's a sad, but known, fact that Aliens can make you do some pretty bad things. The U.S. Government isn't actually eating babies. They're actually eating, oddly enough, a baby-shaped delicacy from the planet Zganorfruock where the Alien controllers originate from.

I hope this clears up the confusion.

Fu Bag

 

[Don Roley]

And are you then willing to ignore death certificates for detained prisoners that list the cause of death "Homicide"?

Throughout the invasion and occupations of Afghanistan and Iraq, detainees have been dying while in American Custody. Early official findings of Homicide were found in Afghanistan in December 2002.

Hoimicide is when one person kills another.

A prisoner that eventually succumbs to the wounds he gained prior to being captured would be dead by homicide.

Do you know that there is murder and torture going on? Do you have proof?

 

[michaeledward]

Hoimicide is when one person kills another.

A prisoner that eventually succumbs to the wounds he gained prior to being captured would be dead by homicide.

Do you know that there is murder and torture going on? Do you have proof?

Man, what planet have you been living on? Fox?

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/06/19/soldiers.charged/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1801415,00.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/20/i...tml?ex=1158552000&en=eb8409e53ddb2ba0&ei=5070

http://www.crimesofwar.org/special/afghan/news-tortureafghan.html

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/nov2001/afgh-n27.shtml

There have been numerous reports of United States Service members killing people in their custody. These reports often include what Rush Limbaugh might describe as 'frat boy pranks' ... you know, violations of Article III of the Geneva Conventions, you know, the law of the land.

Now, these reports are taking place in your run-of-the-mill army detention facilities ... Do you really think the secret - hidden - CIA operated detention facilities --- you know, the ones the Red Cross can't visit --- I'm pretty sure that's a violation of some law, or another too --- are operated more like Club Med?

Why is it that when someone like former JAG officer, now Senator, Graham says we can't change the rules ... you argue for it?

Why is it when a former four star General, a former Secretary of State, like Colin Powell, says we have to honor Geneva, you argue against him?

Why is when former POW John McCain says the law says we don't torture, and the President issues a signing statement saying he is free to disregard, and re-write the law he just signed, you sign with the guy who deserted his military service, and not the guy who was a prisoner for five years?

Why is that a World War II Navy Veteran can argue against what the President is Proposing, and you can disagree with him?




Of course, all this may just be a distraction ... don't look at Iraq. Please don't look at the incredible failure of leadership. The Greatest Military Force ever assembled has become a broken police force, unable to prevent the slaughter of 100 people a day, right under their noses. It took less than four years of incompetent leadership to destroy the greatest military fighting force ever assembled. Four years of unwavering, unquestioning motion in the wrong direction; unable to secure an area the size of California.

George W. Bush can't recognize that he has built his house of flammible material, and set it afire from within.

He is the ultimate failure of Commander in Chief. Unable to listen to dissent. Unable to recognize failing policies. Unable to make a change.

A Disaster, that is destroying the country. Once a beacon of liberty, we are now the country that wants to re-write the Geneva Conventions.

 

[Don Roley]

The first link you posted was to CNN and read as follows,

Pentagon sources told CNN the soldiers claimed the prisoners were attempting to flee at the time.

The three soldiers have been identified as Staff Sgt. Raymond L. Girouard, Pfc. Corey Claggett and Spc. William B. Hunsacker of the 101st Airborne's 3rd Brigade Combat Team, the military said.

All three face charges of murder, attempted murder and conspiracy in connection with the prisoners' deaths.

So, these guys seem to have killed a prisoner and are being charged with murder for it.

It kind of disputes the idea that the military is killing prisoners as an official part of its interogations if they are charging people with murder.

There has been abuses of prisoners, not only in the military- but in the American penal system. When these abuses are brought to light, the people responsible are punished. So you can't say that these are officially sanctioned acts or part of the official way of doing things.

 

[SFC JeffJ]

I'm going to trust soldiers who actually showed up for service, and not just for dentist appointments.

michaeledward, I'm curious about the above statement that you made, being a former soldier myself who went through some of the training that Don has mentioned. What soldiers just show up to dental appointments? Sure, there are REMFs and pogues, but even they have jobs to do.

One I've noticed, back when I was in, sleep deprivation wasn't considered torture. It was almost a matter of course even. But it seems to be now. Why has that changed?

Jeff

 

[michaeledward]

michaeledward, I'm curious about the above statement that you made, being a former soldier myself who went through some of the training that Don has mentioned. What soldiers just show up to dental appointments? Sure, there are REMFs and pogues, but even they have jobs to do.

One I've noticed, back when I was in, sleep deprivation wasn't considered torture. It was almost a matter of course even. But it seems to be now. Why has that changed?

Jeff

George W. Bush was unable to be located during his last year of service in the Texas Air National Guard.

January 6, 1973 ... on this date, there is a record of a dentist appointment. It is the only evidence that Lt. Bush was in the ANG during his last year of service.

Other than that, the commanders in Alabama have no record or recollection of Mr. Bush serving.



As for what constitutes torture ... I am not arguing specific tactics. Nor do I attempt to explain any changes.

What I am arguing is that the United States government has ratified the Geneva Conventions, which specifically deals with treatment of prisoners. The President is attempting to change this 60 year old treaty and law. People with a great deal of military service are against this change. They are stating it is bad for the country, and dangerous for our service members. On this issue, I will trust McCain, Powell, Warner and Graham, much more than five deferment, other priorities VP Cheney and dentist appointment President Bush.

In violation of the law, President Bush and Vice President Cheney have held prisoners in undisclosed locations, without access to the Red Cross society, without ability to communicate to their homes.

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm

 

[Blotan Hunka]

One I've noticed, back when I was in, sleep deprivation wasn't considered torture. It was almost a matter of course even. But it seems to be now. Why has that changed?

Jeff

Bush is president.

 

[Don Roley]

As for what constitutes torture ... I am not arguing specific tactics. Nor do I attempt to explain any changes.

It seems appropriate to talk about what we define as "torture' for this debate.

Is the items being discussed the same thing that we do to our own soldiers? That does seem to be the case if we talk about actual cases and policies being discussed.

As for the idea that we want our soldiers to be safe when captured, it seems that if we extend compasion to nations and groups that treat our soldiers with compassion we meet that goal. If we give compassionate treatment to those that slowly saw the heads off of any American they can capture, there really is no meaning to the idea- is there?

So why should the terrorists treat our soldiers with any compassion when we will treat them decently anyways? That should be a matter of debate I think.

Especially when what we are talking about America doing is along the lines of things that do not leave a person with physical or mental scars and we do to our own soldiers.