American King George II wants MORE private info ...

[Fu_Bag]

What makes any of us believe that we can even figure out what the CIA's methods are? I would imagine that that information would be highly confidential.

Now THAT is what I'd call "the voice of reason".

Nice. Very nice.....

That holds true for a lot of other "public opinion" debates as well. On the plus side, at least they're getting milk and cookies!!!!

Of course, if the milk isn't cold, the cookies are stale, AND there's panties on the head, well then, that might be a little too severe for someone who wants, and/or has tried, to commit mass murder.

 

[michaeledward]

, that might be a little too severe for someone who wants, and/or has tried, to commit mass murder.

I'm guessing you are too busy training to listen to loud rock music to have read this article ..

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060917/ap_on_re_mi_ea/in_american_hands

Yep ...14,000 detainees beyond the reach of jurisprudence.

I bet every single one of them attempted to committ mass murder.

"It was hard to believe I'd get out," Baghdad shopkeeper Amjad Qassim al-Aliyawi told The Associated Press after his release — without charge — last month. "I lived with the Americans for one year and eight months as if I was living in hell."

Twenty Months without charge .... wonder why?

The article also states that many of these detainees are 'pulled from beds at midnight' ... .which is not captured on the battlefield. Forgive me for stating the obvious, as those two activities are mutually exclusive.

And, of course, these are detainees at Army Prisons.

There is no count for those held in undisclosed CIA prisons, or those who have been rendered to other countries.

 

[Makalakumu]

Now THAT is what I'd call "the voice of reason".

Nice. Very nice.....

That holds true for a lot of other "public opinion" debates as well. On the plus side, at least they're getting milk and cookies!!!!

Of course, if the milk isn't cold, the cookies are stale, AND there's panties on the head, well then, that might be a little too severe for someone who wants, and/or has tried, to commit mass murder.

I guess it just struck me...its just that simple. We really don't know and can't know about what they are REALLY doing to these guys. Everything is just speculation.

With that being said, I think that we need to take into account the fact that the CIA has done some really heinous things to people in the past when we speculate. Yet, this can't immediately equate to these things happening now.

Of course, it is entirely possible that they may be using techniques and technology that no one would even have the slightest clue about.

 

[Fu_Bag]

upnorthkyosa,

We have very similar thoughts about these types of things. Great posts!

Fu Bag

 

[Don Roley]

P.S. Since you guys are all lovey touchy on this treatment ... and since you seem to believe that all that is being discussed is eating MRE's and listening to the Red Hot Chili Peppers ... any of you guys going to volunteer for the CIA to test their methods ... I noticed nobody is discussing Waterboarding? Did you do that in your training too guys?

Not I, but a guy in my unit volunteered for it. He spilled his guts within seconds and was none the worse for it afterwards. No scars mental or physical.

And of course, you don't do things like this to everyone in custody. If someone is dropped dime on as a terrorist suspect, you have to take into account it might be someone settling scores and treat them with that as a possiblity. But if someone is caught with a defective suicide vest on, then you can be pretty sure they are involved somehow and probably know something.

So the vast majority of people being held are probably being treated better than they would if any Arab goverment brought them in. You might have missed the article Fu Bag linked to where the prisoners at Abu Gahbi prison are begging for the Americans to come back. If you take a look at how things are run in Syria and such, even what they go through there now is tame. But as long as it is Arabs treating Arabs badly, the world does not seem to have a problem with it.

 

[Cryozombie]

and since you seem to believe that all that is being discussed is eating MRE's

Since you seem to be putting words in my mouth... Let me clarify.

I never said that is ALL that is being done. I questioned WHY that SPECIFIC item was being considered Torture.

​

 

[SFC JeffJ]

But, Heretic ... didn't you hear ...

the CIA took custody of Mr. Al-Libi from the FBI, then they rendered him to Egypt - where he was fed milk and cookies every day - as they were shoving red-hot pokers into all his orafices.

He told Mr. Tenet about these neat Mobile Bio-Weapon Labratories in tractor trailers and rail cars in Iraq... He said that Hussein had at least 7 of these death machines.

Who says you can't get good information from torture ... oh, wait ...

..... never mind .....


P.S. Since you guys are all lovey touchy on this treatment ... and since you seem to believe that all that is being discussed is eating MRE's and listening to the Red Hot Chili Peppers ... any of you guys going to volunteer for the CIA to test their methods ... I noticed nobody is discussing Waterboarding? Did you do that in your training too guys?

In SERE (Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape) school.

With medics right there.

Jeff

 

[Elayna]

Wow this is definatly an interesting topic. Im honestly not sure what its about.
Is it about whether it is right or wrong to torture people? Is it about the methods of "torture"? Is it about who should be tortured and who shouldnt be? So because I believe that this thread is all of the above I wish to claryify my own postion on these things as I have been tortured and seen it done. Not by military or the CIA, but worse, by those who were supposed to protect me.

MY definition of Torture. Anything whether physicall of emotional that inflicts severe/extreme harm. Such as...stabbing one with a knife in the right places that only inflicts pain but not death. Such as extreme degrading of ones self or loved ones. Extrme light torture. Such as bright flashing lights over and over while your eyes are taped open. I believe that this is where torture ranges along with several other things that could be described right?
I dont think eating bad food or sleeping on the floor or ******** in the room you sleep in is torture. Having to bark like a dog or wearing panties on your head is not torture. It may be humiliating but when has anyone never been humiliated? I mean come on be real. I know plenty of kids that had the same thing happen to them as an initiation in public school. So get reall people.

Is it right to torture people?
I would have to say it depends. What did they do? What is their intent?
If they hurt several hundreds of people and they have information that could save lives and that is the only thing they respond to and that is no better way, then yes, it would be appropriate. Now i dont believe anyone can live with themselves after doing horrific things to a person unless they are evil. So I dont think torturing someone is something anyone likes to do, no matter what the press says.
Determing whether it is appropriate or not depends on the sitation, which none of us really knows for sure now do we? Be honest. Are you there? Have you looked into their eyes? Have you spoken to them? No. You just here what the media puts out. So before you cast your judgement on what is appropriate I suggest you get first hand knowledge.
Or at least come up with some solutions instead of bitching about how they are doing such a horrible job. Join them and then you can actuall tell them to their face.

Those that should be tortured are those people who hold the key to someone or several peoples lives and the refuse to cooperate in any way.
I believe it to be the inflictors responsiblity to come up with alternate means to get the desired result. I believe that there is always one if you look hard enough.
But then again there are those people who refuse to give you one. Like suicide bombers for instance. When they have a mission and nothing will stop them. Then you do what you must.

I DO NOT ENDORSE TORTURE!!!!!!!

All that I am saying is this. When you have no other options you do what you must to save lives. If you do not like the methods then get off your *** and do something about it instead of bitching. Because you just complaining about it isnt going to change the fact that whether or not you see it on the news it wont happen.
Torture amongst the ranks has been going on for thousands of years people. And dont you for a second think that just because were nice they will be nice. If you think that then you indeed dont have any of the life experience neccessary to judge.

I will tell you this. I was nice. I did nothing wrong. But I still was tortured. It made no difference that I begged. That I did everything I was told. That I did everything I could do to be perfect. It wasnt enough. They did it anyway and then told me "I love you".
If someone that says that too you would still torture you, what makes you think military who are trained will be any different????????

So...why are you debating this topic? What is your motivation? What is your definitions? Why do you stand where you stand?
Tell me!.
How do you know your way is the right way? And what do you plan on doing about it??

 

[elder999]

I would have to say it depends. What did they do? What is their intent?
If they hurt several hundreds of people and they have information that could save lives and that is the only thing they respond to and that is no better way, then yes, it would be appropriate. Now i dont believe anyone can live with themselves after doing horrific things to a person unless they are evil. So I dont think torturing someone is something anyone likes to do, no matter what the press says.

As posted before, torgture is never appropriate, because it generally doesn't work.

 

[michaeledward]

Since you seem to be putting words in my mouth... Let me clarify.

I never said that is ALL that is being done. I questioned WHY that SPECIFIC item was being considered Torture.

The only person I have heard mention that MRE's were considered torture has been you.

Can you expand my horizons? Who else is so claiming?

Incidently, there are serveral specific references in the Geneva Conventions about what is to be fed to prisoners, and how that feeding is to be monitored.

 

[michaeledward]

In SERE (Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape) school.

With medics right there.

Jeff

Thank you.

So, when you were subject to this technique, you were assured that those standing around you were there to protect you? I wonder if the experience is any different without those assurances.

 

[Don Roley]

Thank you.

So, when you were subject to this technique, you were assured that those standing around you were there to protect you? I wonder if the experience is any different without those assurances.

Probably. The important point is that while it scares the spit even out of people that know in the back of their mind that they are not going to die, it does not leave scars mental or physical.

 

[SFC JeffJ]

Thank you.

So, when you were subject to this technique, you were assured that those standing around you were there to protect you? I wonder if the experience is any different without those assurances.

Were we assured? Not specifically. But the idea that they wouldn't actually kill us was there since it was a school.

That being said, they did a great job of putting doubt into your mind about that.

Jeff

 

[michaeledward]

Were we assured? Not specifically. But the idea that they wouldn't actually kill us was there since it was a school.

That being said, they did a great job of putting doubt into your mind about that.

Jeff

I understand the guards are the known military facilities (Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, etc - as opposed to the black facilities operated by the CIA)
have visited the SERE schools in North Carolina and Maine to learn the techniques taught to Special Forces candidates.


Of course, discussing that which is unknown becomes very difficult, Because everyone is speculating. However;

• Mr. al-Libi was captured.
• He was originally interrogated by the FBI, who report they were getting good information from him. The CIA came in and took custody of the prisoner.
• The CIA rendered him to Egypt.
• Under Egyptian interrogation, he reported that al Qaeda members were trained in the use of Chemical and Biological Weapons by Saddam Hussein's military.
• This claim was used by the President and his administration in lead up to the Iraq invasion as justification for the invasion.
• After the invasion, in the search for Weapons of Mass Destruction, we learned that Mr. al-Libi's claims were completely false.
• Mr. al-Libi has, returned to US custody, has recanted on these claims.

While one example does demonstrate a sufficient sample to prove a theory, this does seem to show that the program of Extrodinary Rendition - torture - does not render actionable intelligence.

Of course, actionable intelligence may not have been the objective.

 

[Elayna]

So....again I ask....Why are you debating this topic? What is your motivation? If you do not support torture and believe it is ineffective what is your solution???

I cant believe that no one is offering up solutions. I mean come on. Is all you can do just argure about how people are wrong all the time?? If so that is just....a waste of time for everyone. I dont care what your views are on the whole situation.
Its just ridicoulus to go over and over and over a subject and give no sign of relief of agreement.
Like Xue, I am getting tired of arguments and dead horses being beat. I swear it seems like a fetish around here.

So write a freaking letter to those who can actually change it? I mean what is your mission to change the world and the way everyone looks at it? I mean really people.
It seems that whenever I put a post like this up people ignore it, i wonder why?? Maybe because you dont want to stop bickering.
A healthy debate is one thing...but beating a dead horse is just...OLD.
So yes, this may be harsh...but so is life.
And heaven forbid if someone should have to actually pay for their actions. OMG. *rolling eyes*.

And I say to you this.....Until you have looked into the eyes of a person who has no other inent then to kill or harm you or someone else, you have no right to judge about what punishment or any "interrogation" they should receive.

And to some the above may sound animalistic or whatever word you wish to use...But have you been there? Have you experienced those feelings?

You are not on the front lines everyday seeing what others see. You dont see all the real and true information they see. Talk to military people...ask the question to the people who can give you real answers other then back stabbing politicans and press. They see only what the want to see. The men and women in uniform and the people who work everyday in those types of situation, see stuff they would never want to see. Ask them..for that is where the truth of the situation is.

I dont think this debate is really about torture. I think this debate is about how people want the world run and many underlying things. I think this is only a topic and and not the meat of the issue.
Because I dont think it would matter for certain people what the methods are...I think it is only who is doing the methods...if you get my drift.

So i ask you again?? What are you trying to accomplish? What is your motivation? If it were up to you how would you do it?
God stop complaining and say something other then...
Oh your dumb...oh you know nothing..Blah blah blah blah.
Sounds like im in the freaking grand canyon with that echo.

If you know better methods then torture put them out there. Dont just say there out there, put them out there.
I would love to know.
cause then maybe we can tell the enemy....
Hey please do this instead of torture...it works so much better.
HAHAHAHA.

anyways....

 

[michaeledward]

A prisoner that eventually succumbs to the wounds he gained prior to being captured would be dead by homicide.

Do you know that there is murder and torture going on? Do you have proof?

This is from an Amnesty International report. Of course, it never matters who the author of the report is, does it?

"It is now known that at least 34 detainees who died in US custody have had their deaths listed by the army as confirmed or suspected criminal homicides. The true number of such deaths may be higher as there is evidence that delays, cover-ups and deficiencies in investigations have hampered the collection of evidence. In several cases, however, substantial evidence has emerged that detainees were tortured to death while under interrogation (revealed, for example, in military autopsy reports, investigation records and recent court testimony). What is even more disturbing is that standard practices as well as interrogation techniques believed to have fallen within officially sanctioned parameters, appear to have played a role in the ill-treatment..."

 

[heretic888]

As posted before, torgture is never appropriate, because it generally doesn't work.

It's also, y'know, wrong.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

There should be rules, we are a nation of law after all. My only beef is that this current issue is 99% politics ans 1% "human rights" IMO. If George said he wanted to feed all Gitmo prisoners McDonalds, some here would be crying thier hearts out. And to the "its not effective" crowd, if some form of "torture" could be shown to be highly effective, would that make any difference?

 

[michaeledward]

There should be rules, we are a nation of law after all. My only beef is that this current issue is 99% politics ans 1% "human rights" IMO. If George said he wanted to feed all Gitmo prisoners McDonalds, some here would be crying thier hearts out. And to the "its not effective" crowd, if some form of "torture" could be shown to be highly effective, would that make any difference?

I am not arguing effectiveness. Although, I agree it is ineffective.

I am arguing it is against the law, you know, the Geneva Conventions; The law our country approved fifty seven years ago.

That President Bush has authorized the CIA to break this law, and is now, retroactively trying to cover his ***, is obscene.

That we have an Attorney General of the United States who has argued that Article III of the Geneva Conventions is 'quaint' and out of date, which therefore no longer needs to be adhered to, is obscene. Shouldn't have that statement, alone, disqualified him from serving as AG? We no longer need to adhere to our treaty obligations.


There are Four Lights!


P.S. ... And I'll note for the record, those 99%-ers, those damned political activists, Colin Powell and John McCain.

 

[SFC JeffJ]

I have only made a few posts on this thread to ask for clarification or to give some information. Now, I think I want my opinion to be out there with the rest though.

Torture is wrong. Regardless of how effective it is, it is simply morally wrong. However, I do think there is some Grey area as to what constitutes torture. I would consider water boarding torture. But not sleep deprivation. I've been subjected to both. Both are effective at breaking down a persons will. Water boarding however puts a person in fear for their lives, whereas depriving someone of sleep might make you more susceptible to interrogation, it is not life threatening.

Basically, I think what constitutes torture falls into "I'll know it when I see it" category.

Jeff