Aikido vs judo

[hoshin1600]

We're going to have to respectfully disagree. Question, which I don't intend as an attack. Have you ever practiced what I'd call Gentleman Judo? Judo for the practice, the learning, not for competition? Just curious, as your thoughts are very similar to aikido folks I've talked with in the past who haven't done judo not spun into the competitive arena.

And, you've very well described why quite a few people in the world do not even consider Tomiki-ryu Aikido aikido at all. Even though Tomiki was granted the first menkyo by O-Sensei around 1940 or so.

I like your physics metaphor of the ball, it's way better than the one I was trying to use to convey the concept to Drop Bear in another thread.

There are a couple things that judo people do that most aikido people don't do, I agree with that. Pull and lift. However, that does not mean that for certain actions in aikido, there's not a crossover from judo that doesn't do the exact same thing. In my mind, it's like those pictures used in math, where they are talking about "sets," in which sometimes there is an overlap of the one set with the other set.

Consider two circles, one colored red, the other colored blue. They are apart, and do not have any portions which are "in" the other one. But, if you overlap them a bit, or a lot (just not completely) you'd have a crescent of red, a middle area of maybe purple, and then an opposing crescent of blue. In the middle area are techniques which are/could be both aikido technically correct as well as judo technically correct. In other words, not all judo techniques use either lift or pull. Some do, and those would not work even under Tomiki "rules" for aikido, he' call those judo. But, you can't even do those throws from out at aikido distance, so it ends up being back to distance between tori/nage and uke.

No I am not a judo guy. I have some judo stuff incorporated into my current combatives stuff but I would never profess to even be a white belt in judo.

I actually agree with you and like the overlap circle idea. My point was that the statement "all styles should do hip throws" is overboard. They can if they want but whether they should or shouldn't is a matter of purpose of training and if it fits the philosophy of the style.

 

[hoshin1600]

Another question. Which... I guess the word "line" will work, line of aikido do you train? Not out from under Tomiki, I get it. Probably not Shioda, either? The original Ueshiba line, or Tohei? Just curious.

I trained under Ed Haupt who was a Shin shin toistu guy and with Fumio Toyota who came to the US with Tohei.

 

[JP3]

I trained under Ed Haupt who was a Shin shin toistu guy and with Fumio Toyota who came to the US with Tohei.

Thanks for both of the above.

I am struggling to understand the thihng about the no hip throws, still. "Whether it fits the philosophy of the style," in particular.

Hip throws are a generic bunch of very similar techniques designed to transform a standing opponent from near to you to a fallen opponent near to you. What philosophy of art would not want to have that tool in their kit? It exists in every grappling art I've ever been exposed to, aikido, judo, jujitsu, BJJ, sambo... etc. It also exists in TKD (though not the competition variety, maybe that's where you're going), hapkido, kung fu, don't know about WC but I'd like to ask, arnis/escrima, silat, systema and so forth.

Straight up "I only hit 'em" arts... maybe them? But still, for those times when he's right ehre and he's hard to hit but oh so easy to just turn and drop... why not? It is such an easy technique to learn and perform, when the situation presents itself.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

"all styles should do hip throws" is overboard.

There are 2 categories of throws:

1. Body contact throw - your back touch on your opponent's chest such as hip throw, shoulder throw, leg lift, leg block, leg twist, ...
2, Non-body contact throw - your chest face to your opponent's chest such as single leg, double legs, foot sweep, front cut, fireman's carry, ...

It takes special training to touch your back on your opponent's chest without being dragged down by your opponent. This is way people always said that "hip throw" is the mother of all "body contact throws".

 

[hoshin1600]

I am struggling to understand the thihng about the no hip throws, still. "Whether it fits the philosophy of the style," in particular.

Don't get hung up on it fitting the philosophy of aikido. I'm sure Gerry could show me how it does. My point was more that the comment was all styles should have hip and shoulder throws and foot sweeps. And I get where he was coming from they are great techniques. I was pointing out that can be a blanket statement. I could easily say all styles should do spinning back kicks. Great effective kick, but there should be a higher reasoning on why something is added to a system.

 

[Spinedoc]

We do lots of hip throws in Aikido. Koshinage is a common technique at upper levels. I am kind of partial to shihonage koshinage myself, but there are lots of variations. We also do kata guruma, gensake otoshi, etc. that ARE ALL part of the Aikido curriculum...now whether or not a dojo practices them or not is another matter entirely. But they exist.

 

[oftheherd1]

Aikido, judo and jujitsu have common origins. Judo was derived from jujitsu with out strikes to make it a sport. Judo has many hip throws and the objective is to get the opponent off balance to throw them on the mat. Aikido is more of using the opponent energy to throw the individual by leveraging the manipulation of joints to force the oponnet in a given direction. In practice while judo slaps on a fall a hapkido practicioner Rolls on a fall. It is said that a true master of hapkido can defend himself with out seriously hurting the opponent. You off course can hurt the oponente. If you see hapkido strikes they are more associated to an imaginary blade since it was developed to defend in case you lost your sword. I suppose that you are familiar with jujitsu so I will not elaborate on that. In regard to styles aikido is very pretty and smooth of the three. In regards to effectiveness jujitsu is very effective on a one to one match. Judo requires close body contact and it is as effective to throw an opponent but requires very close body contact. Jujitsu is a core discipline in mma. Aikido is not used much on mma. Judo skills are also used on mma. But for self defense and health any martial art is beneficial. From my perspective the ranking for age and considering that our bodies age and can not take abuse as we age vs when we are young. I would say that from a physical capability required to practice these sports it would be jujitsu, judo and then aikido. Jujitsu requiring the most stamina and therefore more conducive to young practicioner vs aikido that it is more gentle and probably easier for older practicioners. This is my opinion and I hope it helps

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I can only talk about the Hapkido I learned, but of the others I have seen, most have more similarities than differences. We slap and roll, depending. It is harder to roll into a hip throw where the opponent holds on to one hand while throwing. I will 'slap' with my hand and leg and opposing foot.

In the Hapkido I studied, Master rank is generally at 4th degree. I am 2nd degree, and I can defend myself without damaging my opponent, or maybe even hurting him too much. When I am practicing a technique I certainly would not wish to damage or hurt my practice opponent too much. But in a fight, I certainly could care less. Well, not true, I really want to cause pain and injury. We don't want to fight, but if pushed into it, we don't want to have to do it again.

The kicks and strikes I learned were usually pretty much what I learned in Tae Kwan Do many years ago. I don't know that I would say strikes are more like blade strike. Sorry, I don't see that at all. Strikes are strikes to a part of the anatomy for a given purpose. Hapkido began after WWII, why would it worry about a lost sword? I think the wrist grab defenses, besides being building blocks, may have been associated with sword defenses as well, from Dai Ito ryu, but not as you characterize strikes. But to be honest, I did learn sword defense during training for 2nd degree, both unarmed and with the short stick. We learn some rudimentary sword strikes, the how to defend against them. But there was nothing about striking like a sword at any time.

I know some Hapkido masters and grand masters even, have tried to trace Hapkido back to the Hwa Rang Do, or before, and many moves/techniques no doubt have been around a long time used by other arts as well. But Hapkido as brought to Korea by the art's founder, was begun after WWII, when it was Koreanized.

 

[gerardbu07059]

No sorry I missed type I meant to say aikido in regards to not hurting their opponents. Also i was referring to aikido regarding the sword. I am in the process of studying to test on my third degree in hapkido. Not aikido. I study un grand master chong lee. (9th degree) there is some reference to him on the Wikipedia not sure who edited it. Also i b was referring goto aikido on the strikes to be sword like since in hapkido we do kick and strikes with the signature kick being the spinning heel kick. My apologies for the confusion. I blame the typing aid that these cells have now that change the words on me


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[gerardbu07059]

You may know him if you know many grandmasters in hapkido www.thehapkidocenter.com

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[oftheherd1]

No sorry I missed type I meant to say aikido in regards to not hurting their opponents. Also i was referring to aikido regarding the sword. I am in the process of studying to test on my third degree in hapkido. Not aikido. I study un grand master chong lee. (9th degree) there is some reference to him on the Wikipedia not sure who edited it. Also i b was referring goto aikido on the strikes to be sword like since in hapkido we do kick and strikes with the signature kick being the spinning heel kick. My apologies for the confusion. I blame the typing aid that these cells have now that change the words on me


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No problem, it happens. I don't know your GM, but really I don't know any GMs since my GM passed away. His son also has a school in New Jersey. Talking about kicks, did you also learn the jumping kick to a horizontal double kick to the head, and drop to the floor using your feet and hands/arms for the break fall? Or the reverse spin dropping kick to the opponent's ankle? I was never good at the first kick, but loved the 2nd, and constantly kept practicing it.

 

[lklawson]

Aikido, judo and jujitsu have common origins.

Sort of yes but not in the way that it seems you think. Judo was originally often referred to as Kano-ha jujutsu (or something Kano ryu, ims). Because unarmed systems are (to oversimplify) jujutsu. Both Aikido and Judo were drawn from multiple source systems of jujutsu.

Judo was derived from jujitsu with out strikes to make it a sport.

Well... no. Atemi waza still exists in Judo, though most Judo Sensei don't seem to teach it as an integrated part of Judo. From what I can track this is largely a consequence of Judo's inclusion in the Olympics which changed the focus of most Judo training to sport. Look at the time period and you'll see many Judoka complaining that the Olympics has/will ruin Judo by making it just another sport.

Judo has many hip throws and the objective is to get the opponent off balance to throw them on the mat. Aikido is more of using the opponent energy to throw the individual by leveraging the manipulation of joints to force the oponnet in a given direction. In practice while judo slaps on a fall

Umm... what? Roll falls (zenpo kaiten ukemi) has always been an important part of Judo. Sadakazu Uyenishi demostrates it in his 1905 book "Textbook of Ju-Jitsu."

a hapkido practicioner Rolls on a fall. It is said that a true master of hapkido can defend himself with out seriously hurting the opponent. You off course can hurt the oponente. If you see hapkido strikes they are more associated to an imaginary blade since it was developed to defend in case you lost your sword.

Given the multiple origin stories of Hapkido, and numerous different interpretations, on top of the fact that the OP wasn't asking about Hapkido, perhaps we should skip a discussion of Hapkido?

Judo requires close body contact and it is as effective to throw an opponent but requires very close body contact.

Except in the many cases where it doesn't.

Unless you want to have a debate over what constitutes "close body contact" as opposed to merely "body contact"???

Jujitsu is a core discipline in mma.

For some people. I'm assuming you're now focusing exclusively on Brazilian JuJitsu? <cough>Ronda Rousey<cough>

Aikido is not used much on mma. Judo skills are also used on mma. But for self defense and health any martial art is beneficial. From my perspective the ranking for age and considering that our bodies age and can not take abuse as we age vs when we are young. I would say that from a physical capability required to practice these sports it would be jujitsu, judo and then aikido. Jujitsu requiring the most stamina and therefore more conducive to young practicioner vs aikido that it is more gentle and probably easier for older practicioners. This is my opinion and I hope it helps

errrm.... leaving this one go...

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[gerardbu07059]

I am too old for the horizontal double kick. But I like the spinning heel kick it is my favorite. We do teach the spinning dropping kick also the dropped round house kick to the ankles as well as the normal push kick, down kick, twist kick, hammer kick, heel kick or axe kick, face kick, reverse face, and blade kick.

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[lklawson]

I dont know.
I think judo is more about application and making it work. While aikido is more boiling it down to its core essence and understanding the essence of harmony with all the philosophy that goes with it.

Depends on the "version" of Aikido. There's like 47 different variants ranging from Tomiki (which has sport competitions) through Ki-Aikido (which very strongly focuses on philosophy and harmony).

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

What will happen if you train both Judo and Aikido?

It is fairly common for Judoka to also practice Aikido. Some Judo organizations also have an Aikido curriculum.

Forms & Documents

Personally, I recommend getting a solid foundation in one first before cross-training in another but it's not that big a deal.

As someone who has studied both (am I the only one in this thread?), I recommend starting with Judo. There is sufficient crossover, particularly in body sensitivity, that the two can work together pretty well if the practitioner is willing to put in the extra effort.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Ironbear24]

Um. No.

Yeah that's what I was thinking too. Great way to smash your wrists and hands.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It is fairly common for Judoka to also practice Aikido. Some Judo organizations also have an Aikido curriculum.

Forms & Documents

Personally, I recommend getting a solid foundation in one first before cross-training in another but it's not that big a deal.

As someone who has studied both (am I the only one in this thread?), I recommend starting with Judo. There is sufficient crossover, particularly in body sensitivity, that the two can work together pretty well if the practitioner is willing to put in the extra effort.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I have a little background in Judo and long-term passing experience with Aikido (which is a cousin to my primary art). I'd agree that getting a foundation in one first is better. I'd suggest a start in Judo, all else being equal.

 

[JP3]

Don't get hung up on it fitting the philosophy of aikido. I'm sure Gerry could show me how it does. My point was more that the comment was all styles should have hip and shoulder throws and foot sweeps. And I get where he was coming from they are great techniques. I was pointing out that can be a blanket statement. I could easily say all styles should do spinning back kicks. Great effective kick, but there should be a higher reasoning on why something is added to a system.

OK, I think I get your point now. Let me do this...

If I change my statement to every "person" or "martial artist" should have hip & shoulder throws in their toolkit for themselves, would that work better?
Rather than my earlier blanket (admitted) statement about "every style."