Aikido.. The reality?

[Gerry Seymour]

It’s claiming rather openly that it is an effective form of fighting that emphasizes method over strength, thus weaker individuals (women, children (LOL) and the elderly) can utilize its techniques to defend themselves against larger and stronger assailants.

I must have missed something. That page doesn't refer to women, children, or the elderly (or any group) that I can see. It also doesn't actually make the claim (though I'd say it's implied) that Aikido is effective for self-defense for those groups. It never uses a direct reference to fighting, though I think you and I would both read an implication of fighting in that wording.

Are the movements and principles of Aikido effective for self-defense? They've worked for me the few times I've used them (referring to the principles and movements I see as shared between Aikido and NGA), though they probably weren't necessary there. Others who use them more regularly (where being attacked and needing to control are part of their jobs) report more usefulness than I've had a need for.

I think we sometimes get lost in comparing to something else, which is actually arguing about "best". But "best for" isn't the same things as "good for", or even "can be used for". You won't find a lot of competition evidence (except within Tomiki), because Aikido isn't a good path for that - it takes too long and has too much focus on specific principles, rather than direct fighing effectiveness. Recognizing Aikido principles and movement in video also requires an understanding of those principles and movement, which makes it difficult to discuss with folks who don't have any experience related to it. Note that nobody looks at a jab in a video titled "MMA in a street fight" and says, "that's a jab - it comes from boxing". Sure it does. Also comes from other places, and is part of MMA.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It's troubling that every discussion must always circle back to you and your personal training. Your personal training in Jow Ga isn't the topic of this discussion. We're talking about Aikido. If you want to discuss the efficacy of Jow Ga, create "Jow Ga the Reality" thread, and I'll happily make some comments.

This is how some people try to relate to a subject at hand. It's not about making it about them - it's just how their brain explains things through their own story.

 

[RagingBull]

I must have missed something. That page doesn't refer to women, children, or the elderly (or any group) that I can see. It also doesn't actually make the claim (though I'd say it's implied) that Aikido is effective for self-defense for those groups. It never uses a direct reference to fighting, though I think you and I would both read an implication of fighting in that wording.

Are the movements and principles of Aikido effective for self-defense? They've worked for me the few times I've used them (referring to the principles and movements I see as shared between Aikido and NGA), though they probably weren't necessary there. Others who use them more regularly (where being attacked and needing to control are part of their jobs) report more usefulness than I've had a need for.

I think we sometimes get lost in comparing to something else, which is actually arguing about "best". But "best for" isn't the same things as "good for", or even "can be used for". You won't find a lot of competition evidence (except within Tomiki), because Aikido isn't a good path for that - it takes too long and has too much focus on specific principles, rather than direct fighing effectiveness. Recognizing Aikido principles and movement in video also requires an understanding of those principles and movement, which makes it difficult to discuss with folks who don't have any experience related to it. Note that nobody looks at a jab in a video titled "MMA in a street fight" and says, "that's a jab - it comes from boxing". Sure it does. Also comes from other places, and is part of MMA.

yeah...yeah we don´t understand bro. I have trained in Tendo ryu & Iwama Ryu , from a sensei who trained with Saito in Iwama. Trust me i know the principles. Iwama ryu was shorter that Tendo ryu but not for outside fighting in a modern "arena" on the streets.

 

[Hanzou]

I must have missed something. That page doesn't refer to women, children, or the elderly (or any group) that I can see. It also doesn't actually make the claim (though I'd say it's implied) that Aikido is effective for self-defense for those groups. It never uses a direct reference to fighting, though I think you and I would both read an implication of fighting in that wording.

Are the movements and principles of Aikido effective for self-defense? They've worked for me the few times I've used them (referring to the principles and movements I see as shared between Aikido and NGA), though they probably weren't necessary there. Others who use them more regularly (where being attacked and needing to control are part of their jobs) report more usefulness than I've had a need for.

I think we sometimes get lost in comparing to something else, which is actually arguing about "best". But "best for" isn't the same things as "good for", or even "can be used for". You won't find a lot of competition evidence (except within Tomiki), because Aikido isn't a good path for that - it takes too long and has too much focus on specific principles, rather than direct fighing effectiveness. Recognizing Aikido principles and movement in video also requires an understanding of those principles and movement, which makes it difficult to discuss with folks who don't have any experience related to it. Note that nobody looks at a jab in a video titled "MMA in a street fight" and says, "that's a jab - it comes from boxing". Sure it does. Also comes from other places, and is part of MMA.

Sorry, it's on this page;

Aikido of Dallas

Here's the entire snippet;

"Aikido emphasizes more than fighting skill. Rather it aims to resolve conflict through dissipating attack by controlling the aggressor's energy. The emphasis is on method versus strength making Aikido particularly effective for women, children and the elderly. In addition to improving self-defense skills and physical fitness, the discipline of Aikido enjoys two fundamental commitments: a peaceful resolution of conflict, whenever possible, and self-improvement from Aikido membership."

Essentially that skill trumps strength, thus you don't need to be strong to use Aikido effectively. Hence weaker people can use said art effectively against stronger people.

 

[Hanzou]

This is how some people try to relate to a subject at hand. It's not about making it about them - it's just how their brain explains things through their own story.

That's great, but proficiency in Jow Ga really has nothing to do with the efficacy of Aikido unless we're directly comparing Jow Ga to Aikido, which no one is doing.

 

[RagingBull]

I wish people would just train in Aikido for the harmony & Ki. Forget all the Hollywood crap. You will thank me later !

 

[Gerry Seymour]

yeah...yeah we don´t understand bro. I have trained in Tendo ryu & Iwama Ryu , from a sensei who trained with Saito in Iwama. Trust me i know the principles. Iwama ryu was shorter that Tendo ryu but not for outside fighting in a modern "arena" on the streets.

I never said you didn't understand. In fact, by your statement here, you'd be more likely to undertsand than me.

 

[RagingBull]

I never said you didn't understand. In fact, by your statement here, you'd be more likely to undertsand than me.

I have nothing against Aikido ir Daito ryu but for our modern world no way. I would rather do Judo & Boxing. also look at Kosen Judo. Aikido has some sabaki which can be used but if i was looking for a more effective system, wado ryu.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Sorry, it's on this page;

Aikido of Dallas

Here's the entire snippet;

"Aikido emphasizes more than fighting skill. Rather it aims to resolve conflict through dissipating attack by controlling the aggressor's energy. The emphasis is on method versus strength making Aikido particularly effective for women, children and the elderly. In addition to improving self-defense skills and physical fitness, the discipline of Aikido enjoys two fundamental commitments: a peaceful resolution of conflict, whenever possible, and self-improvement from Aikido membership."

Essentially that skill trumps strength, thus you don't need to be strong to use Aikido effectively. Hence weaker people can use said art effectively against stronger people.

Thanks.

I'll say that this statement holds water to me.......depending upon how they teach and view the art. I've seen some that would emphasize the escape possibilities (which the dissipation of an attacker's momentum enhances) over the control possibilities (which I see less potential for in Aikido by itself, from the parts I've experienced). Knowing how some places approach the art, this could actually be a reasonable statement. Or it might not. I'd consider it problematic, in any case, because of how it can be read.

There does seem to be a misunderstanding (per my view) among many Aikidoka - including instructors - that strength doesn't much matter. Some have even taken that a bit further to think getting strong makes Aikido less effective. The principles and techniques can actually benefit (as can all in other arts I'm aware of) from more strength being available, of course.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I have nothing against Aikido ir Daito ryu but for our modern world no way. I would rather do Judo & Boxing. also look at Kosen Judo. Aikido has some sabaki which can be used but if i was looking for a more effective system, wado ryu.

That's nice for you. I don't recall anyone here asking for alternative art recommendations, though.

 

[RagingBull]

That's nice for you. I don't recall anyone here asking for alternative art recommendations, though.

they don´t have to i am giving my opinion.

 

[jayoliver00]

No no, your entire scenario was imaginary. Despite the arguing back and forth, the rest of us have been having a discussion. This is more creative imagination then all of the Aikido reiki crystals from the rest of the thread.

Wrong, I can do this and have done it in the streets and plenty of times in the gym (minus the intentional head spiking, although we're trained to breakfall and tuck our chin). You just need to train something that works and spar; you know, spar for real.

 

[jayoliver00]

An over confident BJJ coach who thought he was going to wrestle his way into helping that situation. It's sad and unfortunate because his instinct to help got him hurt.

How do you know he "was going to wrestle his way into helping"? He's an MMA coach; do you know what that means?

 

[Steve]

PSA: efficacy and effectiveness are not the same thing. A quick Google will help some folks out.

I just went back and reread the OP and the question it raises is fundamentally about the efficacy of aikido. In other words, the thrust was that we all know aikido isn't effective as trained. But can it be effective?

 

[jayoliver00]

No Hanzou, that's called Judo.

You're ignorant of what BJJ entails.

 

[jayoliver00]

What I can't understand is that you bash Aikido for not being able to fight, then for whatever logic you are using, you believe that Aikido practitioners are going to jump into a situation where they are clearly going to have to fight against multiple people.

So which one is it? Aikido practitioners can't fight? or Aikido practitioners can fight which is why they would jump into a fight against 5 or more people?

What some Aikido schools advertise is irrelevant to the reality of fighting against numbers. While you are at it go ahead and throw Chi Ball fighters, MMA, Kung Fu fighters, and BJJ fighters because they will all tell you that they can fight multiple people as well.

Sounds like he's making a followup point about Aikido; 1st, they can't fight & 2nd, they often falsely advertise that their system was designed specifically for such multiple opponent situations despite rarely being able to really fight. His 2nd point was due to the Akidos not accepting his 1st point.

 

[Hanzou]

Thanks.

I'll say that this statement holds water to me.......depending upon how they teach and view the art. I've seen some that would emphasize the escape possibilities (which the dissipation of an attacker's momentum enhances) over the control possibilities (which I see less potential for in Aikido by itself, from the parts I've experienced). Knowing how some places approach the art, this could actually be a reasonable statement. Or it might not. I'd consider it problematic, in any case, because of how it can be read.

There does seem to be a misunderstanding (per my view) among many Aikidoka - including instructors - that strength doesn't much matter. Some have even taken that a bit further to think getting strong makes Aikido less effective. The principles and techniques can actually benefit (as can all in other arts I'm aware of) from more strength being available, of course.

Well that's really the fundamental point; It is a rather large question mark that a weak person can utilize Aikido effectively against a larger/stronger person. Thus advertising that your art can in fact perform that feat is rather insidious.

And yes, the muscle= bad martial arts is a common fantasy in martial arts. Even Bjj had that nonsense swirling around for a time (though they have evidence to actually back it up to some degree).

 

[jayoliver00]

 

[Steve]

What I can't understand is that you bash Aikido for not being able to fight, then for whatever logic you are using, you believe that Aikido practitioners are going to jump into a situation where they are clearly going to have to fight against multiple people.

So which one is it? Aikido practitioners can't fight? or Aikido practitioners can fight which is why they would jump into a fight against 5 or more people?

What some Aikido schools advertise is irrelevant to the reality of fighting against numbers. While you are at it go ahead and throw Chi Ball fighters, MMA, Kung Fu fighters, and BJJ fighters because they will all tell you that they can fight multiple people as well.

There's another possibility here. I think some folks like the idea of being able to fight, but don't like the idea of actual fighting. They like the trappings of being able to say to folks, "I'm a fighter, and I train in a very serious martial art. I don't compete, and I don't pussyfoot around with ritualized drills and monkey dancing. I am a fighter. I train to defend against multiple attackers... with weapons." They like all of that. But when it comes to actual fighting, they're like, "I'm good." So, when it comes to a situation where they may actually need to use those serious fighting skills, they don't have them.

To get back to the analogy of a swimmer. It's like a person who likes the idea of swimming, and goes through all the motions. But they really can't swim... and on some level whether consciously or subconsciously, they know it. And so when they see a kid drowning, they call the cops and watch the kid die, and tell themselves that it was the smart choice to make.

Truly, the one thing about this entire thread that really irritates me is the tacit endorsement of cowardice. The rest is same old, same old, but this codification of cowardice is a new wrinkle.

 

[Hanzou]

Yeah, I really wish the MT guy just started blasting that idiot. Him catching the dude's legs because he was going slow was dirty.