Aikido hate

[jobo]

You are trying to broaden the range of oponant that you can handle. This would be the essence of getting better at self defence.

why would I want to broaden it to fit a ) a situation that is vanishingly unlikely to happen, ( i may as well train for fighting tigers )and b) that if it did I would lose anyway due to the lack of roid rage

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think training methodology has a large part to play, but its not the only requirement or even actually important at all in some circumstances.

let's take soccer as an example, every one can play soccer, its easy. You try to kick the ball to team mate and failing that kick it in the general direction of the opponents goal. You've got that simple concept and your a soccer player. Now some people will never get any better no matter who coaches them and for how long. They have a certain aptitude and that's it. Now obviously if you can get the other team to all stand still, you can convince them they are better than they actually are.

conversely you can take another player, give him bad coaching and his natural abilities will see him through, he may not be as good as he could be, but maybe his is

as a soccer player I am or at least was quite good, no fancy ball skills needed, I could run faster than most, and tackle like a dumper truck. No amount of coaching would turn me in a skilled midfield player. It was pointless even trying. It's much the same with ma, nothing will ever give me a good side kick, nothing. But who cares when I have a knee. High round house that will cut your leg off

You're confounding the variables, though. If you take two players of equal potential, the training can make a big difference.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ok. Different idea. I get the impression that people want their cake and 6 pack abs. It is not unusual we get it a bit as well.

So in a similar vein People want to become a proficient striker but not want to do hard rounds with absolute mongrels.

Do you feel you are selling that idea to a certain extent.

If I understand your term properly, I don't think going rounds with "absolute mongrels" is necessary to developing proficiency at striking. I do think most people need some amount of reasonably hard sparring, hopefully including some opponents who are better than them.

Now, will the guy who trains against those mongrels be better? Yes. The question is how much of that "better" is functional for his purpose. If his goal is to be able to go toe-to-toe with highly skilled, committed opponents, he probably needs that.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

or another way of looking at it, one of the black belts I spar with has beautifully exicuted kicks. They are high they are accurate, they are power full. Unfortunately for him, they don't hit me as I have moved, he just isn't fast enough. And worse than that every time he does one I sweep his standing leg, so he falls over. He gets quite cross about it. You cant coach him faster, he is limited by what god gave him

He can't get faster (perhaps), but he can probably telegraph it less, choose a better time to execute it, etc.

You're still confounding the variables. I see your point: some things can't be improved by better training. I get that. However, many things CAN be improved by better training. And "better" sometimes depends upon what the weakness is. I've trained with folks who probably never needed to hit a heavy bag. They "naturally" had the power and hand/arm conditioning (from their jobs), and needed to develop movement. Someone who "naturally" moves well may be better served by that heavy bag.

 

[drop bear]

If I understand your term properly, I don't think going rounds with "absolute mongrels" is necessary to developing proficiency at striking. I do think most people need some amount of reasonably hard sparring, hopefully including some opponents who are better than them.

Now, will the guy who trains against those mongrels be better? Yes. The question is how much of that "better" is functional for his purpose. If his goal is to be able to go toe-to-toe with highly skilled, committed opponents, he probably needs that.

Where as if he just wants to do self defense then he can settle for less.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Your whole philosophy of applying locks is different to sub wrestlers.

If he doesn't go with the technique he will get hurt. Which is why you can't train in certain ways.

Has that changed?

No. You may recall I was referring to specific locks and the problem with using them for submission, which is different than whether I can get a lock against resistance. There are some that don't work as submissions (the way we apply them, at least), because they reach the "damage" level too quickly if the person resists once the lock is on. And most of them work beautifully against specific resistance, because that resistance leads into the technique rather than blocking it. But if I go for a standing wrist lock (1st Wrist Technique in NGA), and the person has a rigid, stiff arm, that's the wrong technique. I could maybe force it, use leverage to get past the rigid arm, but why would I? There are other techniques (and other locks) that are right for that stiff arm.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Where as if he just wants to do self defense then he can settle for less.

Yes. Because his chances of having to face a highly skilled person in that context is lower. Now, if he's only going to depend upon striking, that's a limited toolbox, and he probably can't settle for less. But if he's going to have other options (groundwork, standing grappling, etc.) to use, then it's a matter of odds.

Now, would training to that same level hurt his SD? Of course not, assuming he's not foregoing some other toolset to get there.

 

[drop bear]

No. You may recall I was referring to specific locks and the problem with using them for submission, which is different than whether I can get a lock against resistance. There are some that don't work as submissions (the way we apply them, at least), because they reach the "damage" level too quickly if the person resists once the lock is on. And most of them work beautifully against specific resistance, because that resistance leads into the technique rather than blocking it. But if I go for a standing wrist lock (1st Wrist Technique in NGA), and the person has a rigid, stiff arm, that's the wrong technique. I could maybe force it, use leverage to get past the rigid arm, but why would I? There are other techniques (and other locks) that are right for that stiff arm.

Then you could train on the same level as any other martial arts. Sparring,open mat, competition.

At a technical level there are no road blocks.

 

[drop bear]

Yes. Because his chances of having to face a highly skilled person in that context is lower. Now, if he's only going to depend upon striking, that's a limited toolbox, and he probably can't settle for less. But if he's going to have other options (groundwork, standing grappling, etc.) to use, then it's a matter of odds.

Now, would training to that same level hurt his SD? Of course not, assuming he's not foregoing some other toolset to get there.

Ok. what information are you basing these chances on? Where are you testing that assumption?

 

[JP3]

not snarky... exasperation. I understand how that could look snarky, but it's genuine, head shaking, arms in the air exasperation at how you don't get it. Let's be real here. If I said, "I don't advocate resistance training (a term I honestly don't believe I've ever used) above all other training tools," I don't think you'd believe me. I mean, you have already said in this thread that this is something you think ive been saying contuously to the point it's trying your patience. What the hell, Brian?

I think the two of you are suffering from what I call textural dissassociatism. How about that one, Steve... 10 syllables in naught but two words.

The problem with text based speech, as anyone knows who has a kid nowadays who communicates with them often using text messages in a phone setting.... is that probably above 80% of the non-verbal is lost. Why do you think they invented emoji?

Still, I have to say that as a third party, it is sort of funny to read through this stuff watching people (it's obviously not only the two of you, I've had my own just in this thread as everyone knows, DropBear, FriedRice etc) to work through it. I had no idea that Brian had lost his patience, nor did I snap to what that meant as I'd not yet noted nore cared that he is a mod. I could tell Steve was getting wound, as he & I had already wound each other up. Good to read cool heads prevailing.

Now let's get back at it.

No way aikido is going to work on the street, man. No way. I mean, I've been in karate class for two weeks and my instructor, who is a blue belt, was telling me about this one time, at band camp, he heard a story about a blind aikido guy...

 

[JP3]

Ok. I have come up with a bit of an idea of how to explain this.

Say you want to do a wrist lock. And instead of just doing it for the joy of wrist locking people you want to use this for self defence.

Now you cant really train this lock because it rips the arm out of its socket or something. But you have drilled it and are pretty confident with it. And your instructor says it works and your friends says it looks cool.

Now in walks a nasty MMA hater and says "before you get anywhere near my wrist I am going to punch you in the face because I hate Aikido and love face punching."

Well you say "I have atemi which is Aikido for face punching. So I can defend punches and deliver my own which will get me to that wrist"

Well guess what you can test and refine that. That is called boxing. That is called MMA, that is called getting a set of five ounce gloves on and seeing if you can get anywhere near securing that arm.

Now you have spent this time and are a decent striker and you can actually touch a guys wrist in some sort of semblance of a real fight. You dont have to keep complaining he is hitting you wrong And that on the street it will be different. However he hits you. You have the skill to evade punches throw punches and touch that wrist.

Now MMA hater comes back and says" Thats groovy but I am still not just giving you that lock. I will use my amazing MMA technique called defending it."

And you say. "Well bugger. There must be a way I can find out how to get that arm keep it and screw your base up so I can actually have a chance at making the wrist lock work."

well funnily enough. There is wrestling, BJJ, sub westling. And all these other methods of seeing if you can control any variables that will either let that wristlock work or make that lock fail.

What I read is it is all about the lock.

Thanks bruce. Loved you in romeo must die by the way.

Now if you dont consider all these variables and get them in order in some manner. No matter how good you wrist lock is you have a crappy wrist lock.

Sorry I would love for there to be another easier way. But I just dont see one.

Drop, you've been to my school! Though... I'm a bit irritated, you didn't even tell me you were there. The above is very close to precisely what we do, except we have more laughter and cuss words involved.

Maybe I can phrase it this way. If you don't test what you do, you do not Know if it works the way you are doing it.

The above basic truth being stated, some techniques dohn't really lend themselves to testing, such as some of the keto-ryu back-breaker (you have them land across your bent knee... spine going crossways the knee which is bent and based on the ground), or the direct punches to the throat (Jobo's right, we don't really key on the throat like we should, imo), eye gouges, dislocating knee kicks and so forth. You can get a really good idea that they do by working right up tot he moment when gravity is taking over and then ... just release, but even so, you do not have ... Certainty. You have an evidence-supported conclusion.

 

[JP3]

but all these what ifs always seem to depend on your opponent being a derange but highly skilled Mma exponent. They must make up an exceedingly small percentage of the population . Yet on here they seem to be round every corner just itching to attack aikidio people on the flimsiest of excuses. They are to the most part pycotic killing machines. They will win against most arts. Even if you trained bjj. They would still beat you up coz your not phycotic enough and haven't taken enough steroids

Remember Jobo it's not a good thing to pull the wrapper back to uncover the underlying core of ridiculous paranoia behind there... It cuts into the fun of debating these things.

I mean, since I'm teaching at my place, surely, someday, in will walk a 320 lb Russian, expert in sambo and systema and what will poor little old me do?

Though, I do have a plan for that guy.

 

[JP3]

Ok. If you boxed as an example and you got punched in the face and could not land a punch then you would know what you had to work on to fix that element. If you didn't box you will never know.

If you feel that sport has no bearing on your self defence you would never make that connection and would then rely on what exactly?

You'd rely on what we all relied upon at one point... on whatever was being said by whoever was teaching us. Even if the teacher was a 1978 issue of Black Belt on an article about Kung Fu vs. Karate, which is better?

And... you'd be most likely be misled.

 

[JP3]

I'm not talking about broken limbs. I'm talking about hitting someone hard enough to end a bout. I just have no interest in that. I could probably (if my knees weren't crap) enjoy getting into BJJ competition. But getting into MMA - I'd just be the guy not fighting hard enough when facing an opponent with a strong striking game. I'm not interested in hitting him hard enough to win that, nor am I interested in taking the beating he'd give me in that bout.

I used to be that guy. When I was 19 to 27. Nowadays, not so much. Nothing left to fight for, so to speak. Strive for, sure, but not fight. *shrug* Besides, sometimes hitting someone hard enough to knock them down or out hurt my hand/foot/leg and I don't really need that, either.

I could go in the garage and pull the dust cover off the old machine again if I Had to, but I don't Want to.

 

[JP3]

Where have I ever said sport has no bearing on self-defense? This post seems to have no connection to the one you quoted.

I think Drop cross-referenced your post with someone elses.

 

[JP3]

or another way of looking at it, one of the black belts I spar with has beautifully exicuted kicks. They are high they are accurate, they are power full. Unfortunately for him, they don't hit me as I have moved, he just isn't fast enough. And worse than that every time he does one I sweep his standing leg, so he falls over. He gets quite cross about it. You cant coach him faster, he is limited by what god gave him

In that guy's case, you should help him out and tell him to work on timing, not speed. You can't train speed, much, but you can always work on timing, combos and setups.

Or, I suppose you could not tell him and just keep knocking him down and making him cross.

The latter works against your own gaining of skill though.

 

[jobo]

In that guy's case, you should help him out and tell him to work on timing, not speed. You can't train speed, much, but you can always work on timing, combos and setups.

Or, I suppose you could not tell him and just keep knocking him down and making him cross.

The latter works against your own gaining of skill though.

he is one of the instructors', he not going to take kindly to Newby me giving him tips. He needs to best part of a second to throw a kick, I need half a second to move. That's a lot of ground to make up

 

[Steve]

I think the two of you are suffering from what I call textural dissassociatism. How about that one, Steve... 10 syllables in naught but two words.

i like it. What's l funny is, when my now adult son was a toddler I taught him to say, "polysyllabic" just for fun.

The problem with text based speech, as anyone knows who has a kid nowadays who communicates with them often using text messages in a phone setting.... is that probably above 80% of the non-verbal is lost. Why do you think they invented emoji?

Still, I have to say that as a third party, it is sort of funny to read through this stuff watching people (it's obviously not only the two of you, I've had my own just in this thread as everyone knows, DropBear, FriedRice etc) to work through it. I had no idea that Brian had lost his patience, nor did I snap to what that meant as I'd not yet noted nore cared that he is a mod. I could tell Steve was getting wound, as he & I had already wound each other up. Good to read cool heads prevailing.

Now let's get back at it.

No way aikido is going to work on the street, man. No way. I mean, I've been in karate class for two weeks and my instructor, who is a blue belt, was telling me about this one time, at band camp, he heard a story about a blind aikido guy...

You're a cool guy, JP3.

 

[Buka]

Lot of stuff on this thread over the last day.

Here's what I think I think....wait, what were the questions?

 

[drop bear]

Drop, you've been to my school! Though... I'm a bit irritated, you didn't even tell me you were there. The above is very close to precisely what we do, except we have more laughter and cuss words involved.

Maybe I can phrase it this way. If you don't test what you do, you do not Know if it works the way you are doing it.

The above basic truth being stated, some techniques dohn't really lend themselves to testing, such as some of the keto-ryu back-breaker (you have them land across your bent knee... spine going crossways the knee which is bent and based on the ground), or the direct punches to the throat (Jobo's right, we don't really key on the throat like we should, imo), eye gouges, dislocating knee kicks and so forth. You can get a really good idea that they do by working right up tot he moment when gravity is taking over and then ... just release, but even so, you do not have ... Certainty. You have an evidence-supported conclusion.

Or you can do away with the whole concept of an evidence supported conclusion and train your partner to attack and then collapse. In the manner of an untrained thug.

That way it will relfect more closely the reality of what will happen in a street attack.

Or what I have constantly called story based training.