Affirmative action, yes or no?

[Twin Fist]

yes it is

it isnt my fault thier parents were losers.

white previledge is mostly a myth, and everyone knows it.

whitey here, been poor all my life, my parents were poor, I had to join the service to learn a trade,

the difference is, I aint bitching about how someone owes me something.

 

[yorkshirelad]

Is that fair?

Life isn't fair. AA actually ends up hurting minorities. It make the majority resent the minority. Let work, grades, experience and talent be the guide. Do you think that anyone in Golf cares what colour Tiger Woods' skin is. NO. All they care about is that he gets the ball into the hole.

A Pakistani friend of mine in England said that the Premiership was racist because there were very few, if any asians in it, even though there is a significant population of asians in the UK. He thought that Positive Discrimination (AA) was needed. I told him that his position was ridiculous. If they found an asian who could put the ball in the back of the net, they would sign him in a heart beat.

Maybe we need AA in the NBA, there seems to be a disproportionate number of blacks to whites. How many people would be on board with that. Please raise your hands.

 

[celtic_crippler]

Sometimes you have to fight fire with fire.

Convenient reasoning that leaves whites privileged and black disadvantaged.

Any solutions?

Black's aren't the only one's that suffer from discrimination. That fact is often overlooked for some reason.

I do know the answer is not MORE OF THE SAME.

Bill Cosby is probably one of the best examples of taking personal responsibility for one's own destiny and overcoming the odds and making a life, a successful life, for one's self.

He also routinely speaks out against such things as Affirmative Action.

Bill Cosby wasn't talking about affirmative action when he made his remarks last month, criticizing the failure of some African Americans to meet standards of decent behavior. But it should surprise no one that those most unhappy with Cosby's criticism are the people most enamored of preferences based on race and ethnicity.

Once upon a time, the Left opposed racial discrimination. It argued that it was unfair to let racial considerations trump qualifications based on merit. The principle of nondiscrimination carried the day in the 1960s, and it was enshrined into law in various statutes. But these statutes have not resulted in proportional representation for some groups, particularly African Americans, at the upper reaches of our elites. And so now, ironically, it is the Left that pushes racial preferences and denigrates merit.

Read more if you like: http://www.mrc.org/BozellColumns/entertainmentcolumn/2004/col20040528.asp

sure, stay in school, get good grades, EARN thier way into college, get a degree, get a job, and do everythign that whites do to get to the same place?

You forget, we live in an age of "Entitlements". For some reason, some people feel they are entitled to a job or college admission based on nothing more than the color of their skin. Forget actually having to EARN it. That's an outdated ideal.

Yeah, like be born rich, the son, grandson and great-grandson of Ivy League grads, so it doesn't matter if you don't have the brains God gave a turnip-you'll go to a good boarding school, get into an Ivy League school, graduate from both with mediocre grades and have a ready made "position" waiting for you upon graduation?

-whew!- THAT FELT GOOD.


Honestly.

Aren't you the one that routinely likes to remind everyone how well off you and your family is?

yes it is

it isnt my fault thier parents were losers.

white previledge is mostly a myth, and everyone knows it.

whitey here, been poor all my life, my parents were poor, I had to join the service to learn a trade,

the difference is, I aint bitching about how someone owes me something.

There ya go. People, regardless of background, will take everything they can get and use any excuse they can to get it. Nobody actually wants to put the effort into something to actually EARN what they are given.

How many times has the topic of McDojos come up on this forum for exapmple?

Life isn't fair. AA actually ends up hurting minorities. It make the majority resent the minority. Let work, grades, experience and talent be the guide. Do you think that anyone in Golf cares what colour Tiger Woods' skin is. NO. All they care about is that he gets the ball into the hole.

A Pakistani friend of mine in England said that the Premiership was racist because there were very few, if any asians in it, even though there is a significant population of asians in the UK. He thought that Positive Discrimination (AA) was needed. I told him that his position was ridiculous. If they found an asian who could put the ball in the back of the net, they would sign him in a heart beat.

Maybe we need AA in the NBA, there seems to be a disproportionate number of blacks to whites. How many people would be on board with that. Please raise your hands.

Life isn't fair, you have to work for what you want. The concepts of Reaping what you sow, what goes around comes around, return on investment...etc...are lost on those that feel entitled.

I wish there were a United Honky College Fund...maybe then I wouldn't owe so much in student loans.

You can make all the excuses you want, rationalize it untill you can look yourself in the mirror... but at the end of the day you all know that showing any favortism based on race is wrong.

You want advancement? Then take up the torch for what is right without unfairly harming others in the process.

Don't prostitute your principles for what you know is right.

Fight fire with fire? That's BS and you know it. Affirmative Action only perpetuates the problem, not solve it.

Divide and conquer... God forbid the citizens of the US banded together. MLK plan before his assassination was for another march...that was not racially motivated, but rather the working class demanding the same rights as the elite.

Clear your heads and look at it logically...AA simply doesn't make sense. It's wrong. Bias based on race is wrong. You know it. You preach it, yet endorse it in the same breath. Take a step back and look at it and you're bound to realize it.

 

[arnisador]

Yes, there are similarly disadvantaged whites...but if they get a good college education, they're indistinguishable from the born-rich whites. Not so for blacks.

Given the differences in income among racial groups in the U.S. currently, the "bootstraps" arguments seem implicitly to be saying that the groups are different in some way (work ethic? natural abilities?)--because otherwise, why wouldn't the disparities have been erased?

I'd like to see someone who is anti-AA comment on the study mentioned upthread (one of many similar studies). You can overcome being poor, but overcoming being discriminated against based on your ethnicity is much harder. It's a large extra hurdle. What's the remedy for working hard but still being discriminated against based on irrelevant factors you can't control?

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

I am White I am against AA I am discriminated all the time for jobs.
I have even been told to my face"no speaka spanish noa job"
I live in Miami a highly populated Spanish area were White is such a minority that if you tell someone you are White Irish they look at you speechless. I may be discrimintated by my skin but I do not want a job based on my skin either. I want to know I got it because of hardwork and experience.

What does a white person name sound like Barry White is black but Frank Black is white.

Some people I know in a company can't get promoted though they have the experience been with the company more than 10 yrs because of AA. Means some other guy who has less experience been with the company less than 10yrs get the promotion because of his skin.

AA is racist because it only picks people by their race and skin color.

 

[celtic_crippler]

Yes, there are similarly disadvantaged whites...but if they get a good college education, they're indistinguishable from the born-rich whites. Not so for blacks.

Really? I don't recall getting a big "W" stamped on my forehead or anything that would disquinsh me as attaining a college education. I surely wasn't awarded a Royles upon graduation nor was I handed the keys to a fully staffed mansion complete with a French chef.

I also have some educated friends of African decent that would be extremely offended by your assertion as well.

Given the differences in income among racial groups in the U.S. currently, the "bootstraps" arguments seem implicitly to be saying that the groups are different in some way (work ethic? natural abilities?)--because otherwise, why wouldn't the disparities have been erased?

I'm not debating that "wrongs" still occur. I'm saying that AA only perpetuates the problem making it worse. It isn't helping to change anything in a positive way. AA is racial bias and it makes no sense to endorse it if you're against racial bias.

I don't endorse a double standard for anybody for anything, doesn't matter if it's race, gender, or socio-economic status. You will never have any justice or fairness unless the same rules apply to everyone equally. That's simply a fact.

I'd like to see someone who is anti-AA comment on the study mentioned upthread (one of many similar studies). You can overcome being poor, but overcoming being discriminated against based on your ethnicity is much harder. It's a large extra hurdle. What's the remedy for working hard but still being discriminated against based on irrelevant factors you can't control?

Depends on where you live too. Obama seems to have done a pretty good job of overcoming his conditions as did Oprah. Niether one of them are disquinshable from blacks that live in poverty are they?

How about upthread where the poor fellow didn't get into med-school because of AA?

Harming another in the name of fairness is just plain wrong. How would you feel if the police dragged you out of your house in the middle of the night and threw you in jail because somebody else you didn't even know committed a crime against somebody else you didn't even know because of the color of their skin? It doesn't matter that you had nothing to do with it, but now you're being punished because of something somebody of your race did to somebody else of a different race that was wrong. It doesn't matter how you feel about it or your philosophies about race and right and wrong. You're now sitting in jail suffering. It's the same thing.

I don't even pretend to have the answers, but I do know that Affirmative Action is racial bias and racial bias is wrong no matter who is benefitting from it or what the reason is. The KKK had their reasons and it sounded pretty good to them too. The Nazi's had their reasons as well and so on and so on. You can put a different face on it, but at the end of the day it's still discrimination and does nothing to end it.

 

[Twin Fist]

that study?

you want the cold hard truth about that study?

the cold, hard truth is that when employers see Lakisa or Jamal, they KNOW, from past experience that there is a HIGH chance they are getting someone with a lousy work ethic, that will get confrontational and get in your face. Someone who will do a lousy job then threaten to sue if you get on thier ***.

thats the bed the modern "angry black" mentality has created that the good ones get to lie in

it isnt my fault, it isnt the employers fault.

the CULTURE is creating the problems.

there is a reason cops stop blacks, because blacks commit more crimes. There is a reason taxi's wont stop for blacks in NYC, cuz the drivers have been robbed BY BLACKS too many times.

you may think these opinions are racist, but they are also true, from the viewpoint of the employer, the cop, or the taxi driver. I know this because 5 years ago, i was the manager of a Dairy Queen here in town.

I'd like to see someone who is anti-AA comment on the study mentioned upthread (one of many similar studies). You can overcome being poor, but overcoming being discriminated against based on your ethnicity is much harder. It's a large extra hurdle. What's the remedy for working hard but still being discriminated against based on irrelevant factors you can't control?

 

[just2kicku]

I think the bottom line is this, AA is discriminatory. We don't want discrimnination yet we condone it with AA. Quite the double standard. That's like a group saying "don't call me whatever racial slurs" and running around and calling each other that. I don't agree with that either.

You can't demand equality by saying don't discrimninate against me, but it's OK if your discriminated against cause it works out in my favor. That's a load of horse ****. All AA does is build more resentment against those playing the race card.

 

[arnisador]

I do know that Affirmative Action is racial bias and racial bias is wrong no matter who is benefitting from it or what the reason is. The KKK had their reasons and it sounded pretty good to them too. The Nazi's had their reasons as well and so on and so on. You can put a different face on it, but at the end of the day it's still discrimination and does nothing to end it.

Wow, that's really extreme. Affirmative action is like lynchings or concentration camps?

the cold, hard truth is that when employers see Lakisa or Jamal, they KNOW, from past experience that there is a HIGH chance they are getting someone with a lousy work ethic, that will get confrontational and get in your face. Someone who will do a lousy job then threaten to sue if you get on thier ***.

I believe there's some truth to this. Can we help change it?

 

[Twin Fist]

not until the LISTEN to bill cosby instead of ignoring him.....

it isnt easy to hear the truth about yourself, it is easier to blame someone else.

 

[celtic_crippler]

Wow, that's really extreme. Affirmative action is like lynchings or concentration camps?

It seems to take a hammer to drive a point home with some people.

Interesting that you pick that one particular thing to address and conveinently avoid the other 90% of my post.

 

[elder999]

Actually, affirmative action is all sorts of bias.

If you were to take an exam for a federal job-the Postal Service, say, and scored a 96, but you weren't a veteran, you might be beaten out for that job by a veteran who got an 87, because he gets 10 pts. added to his score. It doesn't matter that the test measures aptitude for the job, or that your score was easily superior-the vet gets preferential treatment.Life is not fair.

If you were to apply for a job on an Indian Reservation, say with PNM at the Four Corners Power Plant on the Navaho Nation, and you, again, had to take a test, scored well on it, had good grades in school and had operated at another plant for 8 years with lots of good experience in your resume, and you weren't an American Indian, you might be beat out for the job by someone who scorerd lower, didn't have as good grades or as much experience, but was a "Native American." In fact, if you look at some of those jobs or go to some of those plants, there's a sign right there on the webpage or in the lobby that says they have that preferential hiring practice.Life is not fair.

Another thing, of course, is that "Affirmative Action" doesn't necessarily mean "they hire a less qualified person who's 'whatever'" It might mean that upon weighing all the qualified applicants, theyh choose the qualified candidate who fills whatever quota if is they feel that they're obligated to fill with that job. Or, it may be as it has been in my case, that the most qualified candidate is a "bonus", in that I sit down for the interview and they see the color of my skin (since I didn't self identify until they started allowing you to designate two or more races) and thionk soemthing along the lines of "Ooh goody, he's a really good candidate AND he's black." Of course, the last time that actually happened that way is when I hired on at the lab.Life is not fair.

Lastly, I don't like AA, because, well, I feel the same way Clarence Thomas did, though not quite as spitefully: it makes people make erroneous assumptions about me, and discounts the hard work that I have done.I also don't really care for "social engineering," though I can see the necessity. I'm not really certain how well it works. In any case, I've never needed it, but people continue to make that assumption about me. Life is not fair.

However.

Aren't you the one that routinely likes to remind everyone how well off you and your family is?

There's a story in that, of course. My family-my father's family, has been pretty well off for a long, long time-it's a matter of history. While I've also managed to do pretty well for myself, I'd be the first to point out where I've had advantages along the way-including my intellect. I attended pretty exclusive private schools for parts of my education-and I knew some other, not so bright guys in boarding school who wouldn't have gotten into the schools they got into if their families hadn't been able to send them to schools like Hotchkiss, and if not for their rather famous last names. Of course, they were all white, and that's why the little joke post. My father, and both his parents, and his grandfather and great grandfather all went to college, and succeeded in a lot of ways mandated by the way my family trust is set up, but they had an advantage. Life is not fair.

My mother's parents both graduated from college as well, but, since they didn't hire "people of color" as schoolteachers in Wyoming, my grandfather mined coal, and my mother grew up really poor-the kind of poor a lot of people in America can only imagine. Some will say all the things I've said myself:why didn't they move? There must have been another reason, etc., but the fact is that I've seen my grandparents transcripts, and they did well and should have been able to get jobs once the depression was over, but it didn't happen. Grandma was Wind River Shoshone, grandpa was black (and deaf, which also may have been a factor, and we have AA for the "handicapped" as well) and they weren't going to teach school, and that's the way it was. Life is not fair.

Was AA needed for folks like my grandparents,and the people who came afterward? Sure was. Have I ever needed it? Nope. Not really, but then, I'm superlative,, anomalous and atypical. For others, where the margins might be somewhat narrower, it's needed and used, still I think. Is it fair? No fairer than the likes of Bill Ford getting into Princeton-man's as dumb as a box of tire-chains, I know because I was his trigonometry tutor when he was a senior and I was a freshman.Spoke pretty fair French, though-the ***. Of course, he's done pretty well with his family's company.....Life is not fair, get over it. I have. That's why I voted "I don't care." AA hasn't ever deprived me of a job, gotten me a job, or deprived anyone I know of a job. I don't care.

That's another reason for my little whiny joke-the idea that people whose very skin color continues to be an advantage should complain about the very narrow advantage given to those who are simply born at a disadvantage is somewhat disheartening. That those same people insist that "it's discrimination" (it is) "and that's wrong, regardless of why" miss the point that choosing the best candidate is also a form of discrimination. Life is sooooo unfair. :lol:

 

[morph4me]

Afirmitave action makes assumptions without evidence. If X % of the population in an is a certain race then the same percent of the population should be represented in the job market or educational institutions, but there is no evidence that X % of that population is qualifed, or even interested.

 

[CanuckMA]

I've been in hiring positions for a long time. We have no AA up here, so it does not come into play. Regardless, the 'best' candidate is not always the one that scores higher, that has the best education or the most experience. The best candidate is always the one that I feel can do the job and get along with the culture of the company. I've often dismissed better qualified candidates for those reasons. Not quite the same as AA, but get over the 'I'm more qualified, but he got the job because he's...' mentality.

 

[elder999]

I've been in hiring positions for a long time. We have no AA up here, so it does not come into play. Regardless, the 'best' candidate is not always the one that scores higher, that has the best education or the most experience. The best candidate is always the one that I feel can do the job and get along with the culture of the company. I've often dismissed better qualified candidates for those reasons. Not quite the same as AA, but get over the 'I'm more qualified, but he got the job because he's...' mentality.

I've passed over "the most qualified candidate," also.

He or she was a jerk.

 

[celtic_crippler]

Afirmitave action makes assumptions without evidence. If X % of the population in an is a certain race then the same percent of the population should be represented in the job market or educational institutions, but there is no evidence that X % of that population is qualifed, or even interested.

Tell me about it...sigh.

Last year I had to spend hours with Corporate HR because I didn't hire an "X". Though I thought her resume, work experience, etc pretty much summed up why we hired her, Corporate thought it important enough to actually send somebody down for a face-to-face because she wasn't the right color. It wasted my time and I actually took offense as I consider myself to be a person of integrity.

BTW...after a year I wish I had 10 more like her. She's helped generate a ton of revenue and is the hardest worker I've ever seen. Every day I have to run her off saying, "You know, we dock you an hour for lunch so you might as well take it."

And no, life ain't fair.

I've lived in the ghetto, literally. I've lived in a cinder-block house with a board nailed up where a back door should have been. I've lived, with another guy, cramped up in a small travel trailer rigged up to a light pole for electricity with a small cubby that you hade to squat down in to take a shower. I've worked the crappiest of crappy jobs. I wasn't born into priviledge.

Perhaps that's why I finally decided to do whatever it took to further my education and better my life. Oh, and by the way this all happened after I got out of the service. Vets may get an advantage on a postal exam but it's never got me squat (not that I've asked for it).

So, it goes without saying that life's not fair. Thanks for that Captain Obvious. lol

It's true that one's perspective and/or opinion is partly based on that individual's experiences. Both sides of this coin have been debated and the "victims" of both sides have stated good cases and examples. But when you boil the argument down to it's base it is racial discrimination. That's different than being rewarded 10 points on a postal exam for prior public service to one's country. You get that for being a veteran regardless of your ethnicity.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Black's aren't the only one's that suffer from discrimination. That fact is often overlooked for some reason.

I do know the answer is not MORE OF THE SAME.

Bill Cosby is probably one of the best examples of taking personal responsibility for one's own destiny and overcoming the odds and making a life, a successful life, for one's self.

He also routinely speaks out against such things as Affirmative Action.



Read more if you like: http://www.mrc.org/BozellColumns/entertainmentcolumn/2004/col20040528.asp




You forget, we live in an age of "Entitlements". For some reason, some people feel they are entitled to a job or college admission based on nothing more than the color of their skin. Forget actually having to EARN it. That's an outdated ideal.



Aren't you the one that routinely likes to remind everyone how well off you and your family is?



There ya go. People, regardless of background, will take everything they can get and use any excuse they can to get it. Nobody actually wants to put the effort into something to actually EARN what they are given.

How many times has the topic of McDojos come up on this forum for exapmple?



Life isn't fair, you have to work for what you want. The concepts of Reaping what you sow, what goes around comes around, return on investment...etc...are lost on those that feel entitled.

I wish there were a United Honky College Fund...maybe then I wouldn't owe so much in student loans.

You can make all the excuses you want, rationalize it untill you can look yourself in the mirror... but at the end of the day you all know that showing any favortism based on race is wrong.

You want advancement? Then take up the torch for what is right without unfairly harming others in the process.

Don't prostitute your principles for what you know is right.

Fight fire with fire? That's BS and you know it. Affirmative Action only perpetuates the problem, not solve it.

Divide and conquer... God forbid the citizens of the US banded together. MLK plan before his assassination was for another march...that was not racially motivated, but rather the working class demanding the same rights as the elite.

Clear your heads and look at it logically...AA simply doesn't make sense. It's wrong. Bias based on race is wrong. You know it. You preach it, yet endorse it in the same breath. Take a step back and look at it and you're bound to realize it.

Bill Cosby is a comedian.
Sean

 

[elder999]

Vets may get an advantage on a postal exam but it's never got me squat (not that I've asked for it). .

Vets get 10 preference points added in consideration for all federal employment. You don't have to "ask for it," just let them know that you're a vet. Not begrudging it, just pointing out the inherent unfairness that someone who demonstrates that they're more qualified gets discriminated against because they're not a vet. Life is unfair.

"Captain Obvious" I like that. :lol:

Bill Cosby is a comedian.
Sean

Thanks for that, Lt. Obvious :lfao:

 

[Touch Of Death]

yes it is

it isnt my fault thier parents were losers.

white previledge is mostly a myth, and everyone knows it.

whitey here, been poor all my life, my parents were poor, I had to join the service to learn a trade,

the difference is, I aint bitching about how someone owes me something.

And it wasn't your fault that there grandparents were enslaved, but the problem still exists. There are even more White losers than Black losers by the way. The whites are priviledged plain and simple; however, there are plenty of under priviledged whites given that they are the dominant population.
Sean

 

[celtic_crippler]

Bill Cosby is a comedian.
Sean

He's also got a PhD in Psychology.

Vets get 10 preference points added in consideration for all federal employment. You don't have to "ask for it," just let them know that you're a vet. Not begrudging it, just pointing out the inherent unfairness that someone who demonstrates that they're more qualified gets discriminated against because they're not a vet. Life is unfair.

"Captain Obvious" I like that. :lol:

Point taken. I'll make you a cape.