Emphasis on Structure and relaxation in other Lineages

[Snowy]

Hi Guys,

Relatively new to this forum, been lurking around for a few days reading older posts though.

I've only been training for a year but wing chun has proven to be an amazing and dynamic martial art that can make you think for hours on end.

I hail from the Tsui Sheung Tin --> Jim Fung lineage, in which the internal aspects of wing chun are greatly emphasized.

Structure and relaxation go hand in hand, and as a new student we're told to constantly relax and rely on our internal structure to deal with all incoming forces. At higher levels, I've witnessed the more experienced instructors are able to utilize their stance to send incoming force straight to the ground and have it rebound back into the attacker simply by setting up their structure properly and pointing (something I have yet to grasp). I experienced this first hand when I sent a full power boxing hook and nearly threw my back out when the strike made contact with the instructor's bong sau. In conclusion, this seems to be a very effective way of powering the wing chun movements, through relaxed but focused internal structures.

My question is do the other various lineages of wing chun out there put as much emphasis on the internal aspects and relaxation as the TST lineage does? Or do they tend to use more external methods to utilize their wing chun?

How does your lineage/school/sifu train you in regards to structure and/or relaxation?

PS: this comes to mind after meeting another wc practitioner from another lineage that apparently focused on sparring. Even after 2 years of training, he had poor structure that buckled under any real force (at least by my school's standard of structure). Made me wonder about it.

 

[Tez3]

I'm not WC I'm afraid, just wanted to say welcome to MT! Why don't you pop over to the Meet and Greet section too and say hello. As far as the WC is concerned, I know you'll have good discussions here so enjoy!

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Great question, and welcome to MT! I am also not WC, but in Isshin-Ryu, we do the same thing. Relaxation and proper grounding are key.

 

[WC_lun]

The Hung Fa Yi lineage also puts great emphasis on correct and strong structure.

 

[seasoned]

Welcome aboard. Also in Okinawan GoJu breath, structure and movement are key to the principles within my art. There are many excellent WC people on the site, enjoy...........

 

[mook jong man]

In my experience I believe there to be four main components.
Relaxation
Tei Gong , back straight and the correct drawing upwards of the muscles surrounding the anus ( stance).
Optimum or Ultimate Angle of the arms ( structure)
Mental Focusing to centerline

 

[Danny T]

Relaxation, Tei Gong, Proper structure and positioning ofthe limbs, and Mental focus on the centerline and the opposing side of thetriangle is very important; our lineage (Jiu Wan > Francis Fong) Strength is through the combining of these at the proper instant.

 

[Snowy]

In my experience I believe there to be four main components.
Relaxation
Tei Gong , back straight and the correct drawing upwards of the muscles surrounding the anus ( stance).
Optimum or Ultimate Angle of the arms ( structure)
Mental Focusing to centerline

Thanks for all the warm welcomes!

It is good to hear other lineages utilize the concepts of structure and relaxation. It is also interesting to see that other martial arts emphasize these concepts as well.

Mook Jong Man, I have an inkling we come from the same school. It is nice to meet a fellow sihing/instructor(?). If you don't mind me asking, how long have you been training?

 

[mook jong man]

Thanks for all the warm welcomes!

It is good to hear other lineages utilize the concepts of structure and relaxation. It is also interesting to see that other martial arts emphasize these concepts as well.

Mook Jong Man, I have an inkling we come from the same school. It is nice to meet a fellow sihing/instructor(?). If you don't mind me asking, how long have you been training?

Signed up in June of 89 , I was a level two instructor before I left the Sydney academy in about 2001.
Have continued with my training and teaching since then and dabbled in a few other things along the way.

 

[Vajramusti]

Hi Guys,

Relatively new to this forum, been lurking around for a few days reading older posts though.

I've only been training for a year but wing chun has proven to be an amazing and dynamic martial art that can make you think for hours on end.

I hail from the Tsui Sheung Tin --> Jim Fung lineage, in which the internal aspects of wing chun are greatly emphasized.

Structure and relaxation go hand in hand, and as a new student we're told to constantly relax and rely on our internal structure to deal with all incoming forces. At higher levels, I've witnessed the more experienced instructors are able to utilize their stance to send incoming force straight to the ground and have it rebound back into the attacker simply by setting up their structure properly and pointing (something I have yet to grasp). I experienced this first hand when I sent a full power boxing hook and nearly threw my back out when the strike made contact with the instructor's bong sau. In conclusion, this seems to be a very effective way of powering the wing chun movements, through relaxed but focused internal structures.

My question is do the other various lineages of wing chun out there put as much emphasis on the internal aspects and relaxation as the TST lineage does? Or do they tend to use more external methods to utilize their wing chun?
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Welcome to this civil chat list. Wing chun is rch and diverse world.

I am from the Augutine Fong lineage which traces it's path via Ho Kam Ming to Ip Man.But Master Fong does not use anyone to speak for him.
I emphasize structure as much as anyone iincluding TST(I have rolled with him during his first visit to the US).

Structural integrity or proper posture is very much emphasized.A quote from Fong sifu's web site: ",,,,,,13 principles in Wing Chun, such as posture, position, timing, distance, power, the way, reaction, guts, aggressiveness, controlling, decision, reserve and adjustment, as well as mastery over the techniques of the system. ".
Good wishes, joy chaudhuri

 

[geezer]

Snowy, glad you decided to stop lurking and start joining in. Great post BTW. I've never met a serious WC guy who doesn't claim to emphasize structure and relaxation over brute strength, but what they actually do is often very different. For example, one local group (of Ip Man lineage) has put out some youtube clips showing their master holding up the weight of two people with his tan sau! I come from a different Ip Man branch and we do not emphasize crossing force like that. To the contrary, we emphasize relaxation and yielding before force.

So in short, we are a "soft" branch of WC... but our rationale is grounded in simple physics, not mysticism. I know of others who speak more of internal power, qi, and so forth. We prefer to explain what we do in simple physical terms and analogies.

What little I know of the TST branch leads me to believe that you guys explain things with a bit more inclination to what I would call the "internal" mind-set, but the end result is similar. Or to put it another way, I've never read a post by Mook that didn't make sense to me. In fact, I'm still waiting for his book to come out--LOL.

 

[Danny T]

..., one local group (of Ip Man lineage) has put out some youtube clips showing their master holding up the weight of two people with his tan sau! I come from a different Ip Man branch and we do not emphasize crossing force like that. To the contrary, we emphasize relaxation and yielding before force.

So in short, we are a "soft" branch of WC... but our rationale is grounded in simple physics, not mysticism. ...We prefer to explain what we do in simple physical terms and analogies.

We also emphasis a soft understanding butalso use some very powerful elements as using a tan or bong sao to show howpowerful the structure is and how the pressure is transferred through thestructure to the ground however, that Is Not how we apply the tools. Itissimply a demonstration of using the body as a conduit for the pressure to beredirected through relaxation, sinking, hip placement, and other physics. Wealso apply through yielding but it lets beginners see, feel and understand;therefore they trust the tool as they learn to yield vs. fighting against theforce.

 

[yak sao]

We also emphasis a soft understanding butalso use some very powerful elements as using a tan or bong sao to show howpowerful the structure is and how the pressure is transferred through thestructure to the ground however, that Is Not how we apply the tools. Itissimply a demonstration of using the body as a conduit for the pressure to beredirected through relaxation, sinking, hip placement, and other physics. Wealso apply through yielding but it lets beginners see, feel and understand;therefore they trust the tool as they learn to yield vs. fighting against theforce.

By having proper structure, you are able to yield by choice, not by necessity.

 

[J W]

I've been studying in the Moy Yat lineage for a bit over a year now. Relaxation and structure are heavily emphasized at our school. The importance of these is explained to new students at the beginning, and with each new exercise it becomes more and more evident just how important they are.

Each time I move on to something new, I learn more about where my structure is lacking and how to improve it. I'm never told that I need to put more muscle into it, or that I need to use more strength to power through my partner's defense. Improving structure is almost always the answer given.

I expect this is true of most Wing Chun lineages, since one of the common principles is to not meet force with force. Some schools/instructors are better at instilling proper structure & relaxation than others, I'm sure, which could explain your friend's poor structure. Of course, it might not be the school he attended, either; maybe he just wasn't a particularly dedicated or talented student.

 

[Snowy]

Thanks for all the replies.

It is definitely heartening to see that most other lineages focus on internal structures/relaxation! I had always thought the TST lineage was the softest (most internal) of the Yip Man lineages, but it looks like I was wrong.

Keep up the good work guys and train hard!