Adaptability of Kenpo

Yeti

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I have a question for the Kenpo faithful....It's my understanding that Kenpo teaches multiple techniques in succession to take out an attacker, rather than relying on a single strike (the anti "one strike / one kill mentality). But what happens if your attacker doesn't do what you expect during a particular technique (steps forward rather than falling back, etc.)? Do you find you are able to quickly revert to a different technique to adapt to the new situation, or have the techniques become so ingrained over time that you find adaptability to be difficult?

I ask this because a friend of mine attended a self defense seminar in our area, and when showing me some of the things she learned I did something she wasn't expecting and she insantly went stiff as a board. Later she told me that I wasn't supposed to do that and she didn't know what to do. I fully realize that a day or two of crash-course SD training can not make up for years of MA study, but the whole thing got me thinking, and I'd be curious to hear your thoughts. Thanks.

-Mike
 

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Yeti said:
I have a question for the Kenpo faithful....It's my understanding that Kenpo teaches multiple techniques in succession to take out an attacker, rather than relying on a single strike (the anti "one strike / one kill mentality). But what happens if your attacker doesn't do what you expect during a particular technique (steps forward rather than falling back, etc.)? Do you find you are able to quickly revert to a different technique to adapt to the new situation, or have the techniques become so ingrained over time that you find adaptability to be difficult?

I ask this because a friend of mine attended a self defense seminar in our area, and when showing me some of the things she learned I did something she wasn't expecting and she insantly went stiff as a board. Later she told me that I wasn't supposed to do that and she didn't know what to do. I fully realize that a day or two of crash-course SD training can not make up for years of MA study, but the whole thing got me thinking, and I'd be curious to hear your thoughts. Thanks.

-Mike

One thing to keep in mind here, is that when techs. are first taught, they are taught in the 'ideal phase' to allow the student to be able to grasp what is supposed to be done. However, once the tech. is learned, the student then should begin to cover the 'what if' or 'even if' phases of the tech. We can't predict how an attacker will move, so we need to be able to just react to whatever is happening at that given moment.

I've seen the same thing during tech. lines that I've run. I'd have a student in the middle, and have the attackers throw out an attack that I know the student has not yet covered, just to see their reaction, and needless to say, its exactly what you described with your friend...they froze, and were not sure what to do. I'd ask them if they knew how to move, block, punch, kick, and of course they'd say yes. My response was..then do it!!!

I'd always try to instill in them that the techs. are simply a foundation to build off of. They should not expect to do a tech. in the 'text book' fashion. Is this possible to do? Yes, but we should not assume that it will always turn out that way, for the very same reasons you mentioned in your post.

Again, once the base tech. is learned, we need to be able to adapt to the situation at hand. If the attacker is throwing a right punch, and we learned "X" tech. with them stepping forward, and they don't...well, we need to be able to change our plan and go to plan "B"

Slowly working drills with spontanious attacks is an excellent start.

Mike
 

Touch Of Death

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I would have to say that the techs are studies of motion and not meant to be performed from start to finish in a street situation. The Master key for fighting is targets; so, If the oponent stepped back instead of forward the target availability just changed and you will act accordingly. Your freinds problem at the time you tested her was that she was shown a specific response to a specific situation, and you said what if I changed the situation? Her answer should have been, well then I would do the other specific tech that covers the new attack or reaction. Each tech is only designed for one situation only. Think of your algebra class in High School. Your teacher gave you a bunch of problems to solve at home but gave you different problems on the test. How were you able to pass when the problems you solved at home didn't match the problems on the test? Did you adapt?
Sean
 

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I posted this on another thread dealing with Kenpo techniques. I feel it is also an appropriate answer here.

When the fertilizer hits the ventilator effective self defense lies in the ability to recognize relative body position. The method of learning by techniques allows the individual to be exposed to various, numerous, countless (you choose the approriate word) body positions. The repetitive nature of proper training techniques on a basic level give you more tools for the tool box; on an advanced level training techniques allow the mind to recognize at faster and faster intervals these body postions, eventually developing to the point where the response will become almost anticipatory in nature. Whether you using the term grafting or the phrase "blending and borrowing" which I'm fond of, it all comes down to recognizing body position and the changes in body positions and being able to deal with it. Always be cautious of "paralysis by analysis"

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute
 
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Yeti

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Touch'O'Death said:
The Master key for fighting is targets; so, If the oponent stepped back instead of forward the target availability just changed and you will act accordingly.

I think that's brilliant. We all train this way, but I've never heard it put so well.

Touch'O'Death said:
Think of your algebra class in High School. Your teacher gave you a bunch of problems to solve at home but gave you different problems on the test. How were you able to pass when the problems you solved at home didn't match the problems on the test? Did you adapt?

HA! Not very well I'm afraid..."We never saw THAT in class!"...LOL.


In the end - like anything else - I guess it all comes down to basics. You can't effectively react and move from one technique to another if you've got a poor foundation (stance, balance, form, etc.).

-Mike
 
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octopic

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The techniques that one learns in Kempo are the paints and the attacker is the canvas. While you may have studied specific ways to paint, it is up to each artist to paint in one's own style. In other words, as the student gets more advanced, they need to learn how to use the principles that they've been taught in creative ways. They need to face different attacks, different attackers in order to determine what works best for them. I don't get mad at my students if they forget a technique. I do get mad at them if they freeze.
 

pesilat

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I'm not a Kenpo guy but have worked with some Kenpo guys and been exposed to a fair amount of Kenpo and, especially, the Kenpo mindset.

I'd say that what the Kenpo techniques are intended to teach is not techniques but rather flow. Once the flow is ingrained then you'll just flow. You'll do what my instructor labels "AAA" - "accept, adapt, act." You accept the situation as it is (which is dynamic and fluid and changes from moment to moment in the fight), then you adapt to the situation as it is, then you act. Eventually, this AAA ceases to be 3 separate steps and becomes one that moves with the flow.

Mike
 

pete

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pesilat said:
I'd say that what the Kenpo techniques are intended to teach is not techniques but rather flow.
sorry, but as someone who does train in kenpo, i have to disagree with you on this one. while the process learning the techniques (and forms) disciplines the mind and body to move a certain way, the techniques are practiced repetitively as responses to specific attacks. further, pieces of the techniques are practiced as responses to other conditions which may occur during an unexpected event. we find this in grafting and in the extensions.

it would be crazy to train specific techniques over and over, just to do something you've never practiced before when you really need it, just because it 'flows'...

i would agree to a certain extent, if you made that statement regarding our forms and sets.

pete.
 

loki09789

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Yeti said:
I have a question for the Kenpo faithful....It's my understanding that Kenpo teaches multiple techniques in succession to take out an attacker, rather than relying on a single strike (the anti "one strike / one kill mentality). But what happens if your attacker doesn't do what you expect during a particular technique (steps forward rather than falling back, etc.)? Do you find you are able to quickly revert to a different technique to adapt to the new situation, or have the techniques become so ingrained over time that you find adaptability to be difficult?

I ask this because a friend of mine attended a self defense seminar in our area, and when showing me some of the things she learned I did something she wasn't expecting and she insantly went stiff as a board. Later she told me that I wasn't supposed to do that and she didn't know what to do. I fully realize that a day or two of crash-course SD training can not make up for years of MA study, but the whole thing got me thinking, and I'd be curious to hear your thoughts. Thanks.

-Mike
What level of training/skill/self defense responiveness was your friend at when you did this? The 'stiff as a board' response has little to do with a particular art as much as the training of that art in the school.

Kenpo is a 'conceptual' art at the higher levels of training. Early on it is very much a 'slot A, Tab B' type of training and very canned, but that is what it takes to establish the foundation. Fairly early on in training Kenpoka learn that the sequence of moves that they learned as "Bowing to Buddha" as a specific response to a specific attack can be 'conceptualized' into a series of mechanical motions that work to respond to a variety of attacks and not just that one attack.

At the other end of the spectrum, Kenpo instruction teachs a variety of response to the same attack so that if you find yourself in a particular position...you can flow into any one of them instead of feeling that your in 'the wrong stance/position' to 'make the technique work.'

In truth, when you are really doing this stuff, 'technique' should not be on your mind so much as 'objective.' My 'objective' in a self defense situation is to stop the negative behavior. With that mentallity, there is no actually 'right or wrong' as much as 'applicable' to the moment. The only consideration I might allow to sneak into my head is to remember to stop when the threat is no longer reasonably there so that I don't go into excessive force.

Remember there is always that "Legal Arena" after the "Physical Arena" is done.

So, Kenpo teaches adaptability by teaching students how ONE application can fit many circumstances as well as teaching MANY applications for one circumstance. By doing this, students begin to break out of the 'slot A, Tab B' mentallity and can be more responsive/adaptable.
 

pesilat

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pete said:
sorry, but as someone who does train in kenpo, i have to disagree with you on this one. while the process learning the techniques (and forms) disciplines the mind and body to move a certain way, the techniques are practiced repetitively as responses to specific attacks. further, pieces of the techniques are practiced as responses to other conditions which may occur during an unexpected event. we find this in grafting and in the extensions.

it would be crazy to train specific techniques over and over, just to do something you've never practiced before when you really need it, just because it 'flows'...

i would agree to a certain extent, if you made that statement regarding our forms and sets.

pete.

I'm not sure where I ever said you'd end up doing something you'd never practiced before. That's not what I meant by "flow."

What I meant was, for instance, a guy swings and I respond as I've been trained. My initial response causes the guy to react in a way that I haven't trained as a response to what I'm doint. But his reaction puts him into position that sets him up for something else that I have practiced so I flow to that.

Of course, I could be spitting in the wind. One of the reasons I prefaced my statement as I did was so that people could take it as it was intended - a well-intended but possibly off-base response from an objective outsider's perspective.

Mike
 

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loki09789 said:
What level of training/skill/self defense responiveness was your friend at when you did this? The 'stiff as a board' response has little to do with a particular art as much as the training of that art in the school.

Kenpo is a 'conceptual' art at the higher levels of training. Early on it is very much a 'slot A, Tab B' type of training and very canned, but that is what it takes to establish the foundation. Fairly early on in training Kenpoka learn that the sequence of moves that they learned as "Bowing to Buddha" as a specific response to a specific attack can be 'conceptualized' into a series of mechanical motions that work to respond to a variety of attacks and not just that one attack.

At the other end of the spectrum, Kenpo instruction teachs a variety of response to the same attack so that if you find yourself in a particular position...you can flow into any one of them instead of feeling that your in 'the wrong stance/position' to 'make the technique work.'

In truth, when you are really doing this stuff, 'technique' should not be on your mind so much as 'objective.' My 'objective' in a self defense situation is to stop the negative behavior. With that mentallity, there is no actually 'right or wrong' as much as 'applicable' to the moment. The only consideration I might allow to sneak into my head is to remember to stop when the threat is no longer reasonably there so that I don't go into excessive force.

Remember there is always that "Legal Arena" after the "Physical Arena" is done.

So, Kenpo teaches adaptability by teaching students how ONE application can fit many circumstances as well as teaching MANY applications for one circumstance. By doing this, students begin to break out of the 'slot A, Tab B' mentallity and can be more responsive/adaptable.
I agree and would only add that your decision for which tech to perform is dictated by timming and enviornment.
Sean
 

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pesilat said:
I'm not sure where I ever said you'd end up doing something you'd never practiced before. That's not what I meant by "flow."

What I meant was, for instance, a guy swings and I respond as I've been trained. My initial response causes the guy to react in a way that I haven't trained as a response to what I'm doint. But his reaction puts him into position that sets him up for something else that I have practiced so I flow to that.

Of course, I could be spitting in the wind. One of the reasons I prefaced my statement as I did was so that people could take it as it was intended - a well-intended but possibly off-base response from an objective outsider's perspective.

Mike
Pelisat: Your on the mark but using terminology that isn't standard to the Kenpo dictionary.

What FMAers call 'Flow' would be considerned 'adaptability/responsiveness.'

The fun part of working under my instructor was that the curriculum was a blend of Kenpo and FMA/Arnis so the relationship/commonallities between the styles are great to see. The funny thing is that in motion, when no intro has been made, we have had people say "Hey, that looks like Kenpo" when we are doing a FMA drill and vice versa as well.

Both FMAers and Kenpoka are tacticians at the higher levels of training because it is less about exactly 'what you do' and more about 'why you are doing it' (objectives, goals, intent, purpose, ....).
 

pesilat

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loki09789 said:
Pelisat: Your on the mark but using terminology that isn't standard to the Kenpo dictionary.

What FMAers call 'Flow' would be considerned 'adaptability/responsiveness.'

The fun part of working under my instructor was that the curriculum was a blend of Kenpo and FMA/Arnis so the relationship/commonallities between the styles are great to see. The funny thing is that in motion, when no intro has been made, we have had people say "Hey, that looks like Kenpo" when we are doing a FMA drill and vice versa as well.

Both FMAers and Kenpoka are tacticians at the higher levels of training because it is less about exactly 'what you do' and more about 'why you are doing it' (objectives, goals, intent, purpose, ....).

Thanks for the clarification/translation :) Yeah, I've seen a lot of similarities between the FMA that I do and the Kenpo that I've been exposed to.

Mike
 

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No one can expect to go to a one-day seminar and expect to be expert on the subject. I believe that to be true for kenpo self-defense techniques, as well as many other subjects.

To me techniques, at the most fundamental level, teach a beginner what natural weapons to strike with, what targets to strike to, how to move to avoid the attack, how to move to deliver the strike, etc. And if practiced a thousand times then it might be retained and the movements will come without concious thought.

When a situation occurs where the attacker doesn't do something that the coreographed technique was "designed" for, then yes, adaptation is a must. The defender may have to pick a different target, may have to pick a different natural weapon, or both. And you may even move into a different technique (or a piece of it).

If you have a repertoire of techniques to choose from then you can graft techniques together as the situation demands.

This reminds me of phases I went through learning techniques:
As a beginner I was very mechanical getting each technique down, move by move and was (after practice) able to do it well. At some point in my intermediate stage, I couldn't seem to do a technique from start to finish as I had learned it -- I would start with a technique and end up doing pieces of other techniques without hesitation and they all worked together. Now I can see a new technique and repeat the movements without any practice (unless I want to retain it). I've wondered if this is a common thing or am I just more strange than I thought.

Having had opportunity to see some techniques done by different schools in different ways, I find that I can spend hours on even a "simple" technique: analyzing it and performing it with different nuances. Right now, doing that is a lot of fun for me.
 

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Ray said:
.... I've wondered if this is a common thing or am I just more strange than I thought......
QUOTE]


LOL No man, it means you're a natural! Some folks never get to this stage, many spend a lot of time getting to this place, and do it hesitantly, at that. The only downside to it is that at some point in the future you may find yourself saying "I know what I throw in here, but how was it taught to me again ?" (Before looking at any printed curriculum, of course)
 

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Dosent that just give you the sh#ts , I lost my reply when i clicked back after preveiwing my post . Are Well.
 
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Yeti

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For all those still remotely interested in this thread, I just found this online...it's kind of long so grab a coffee before you begin, but it answers my original question very nicely.

"This section I'm writing out of frustration at the criticism American Kenpo (and it's derivatives) attracts from people who don't understand it! The general criticism is that the self defence techniques that we practice (see clip 6 below for an example) "wouldn't work". People don't mention a particular part they don't think would work, they generally just condemn the entire technique. When probed further, and this is the crux of it, they mention that the person is "'just standing there while the guy hits him...that wouldn't happen in real life".

Now, listen carefully...that is completely true, it's blatantly obvious, you're not clever for realising it and not only do I agree with you but any American Kenpoist would also agree with you. Nobody ever claimed that the person was going to stand there while they were hit as they do in practice, because that isn't the way the system is designed to work.

As Senior Grand Master Ed Parker used to say, learning Kenpo is like learning a language. He used to call it "The A-B-Cs of motion". When you learn a foreign language, you begin by learning individual words. Then, when you have learnt some words, you begin to learn word groupings (which words can go together and be grammatically correct), which you build up into sentences (collections of word groupings) and finally a conversation (a collection of sentences, responding to the words and sentences used by the other parties in the conversation).

How people teach martial arts varies, but American Kenpo is taught in much the same way. Your words are your basic strikes, such as a jab, inwards block, front kick, hand sword, stance change etc.. When you enter a school, you will begin by being taught these moves in isolation, much as when you being to learn a language you are taught the meaning of single words. Just as learning single words helps to build up your pronunciation skills, so learning a piece of motion in isolation helps to improve your confidence, balance, targeting, breathing and other fundamentals.

Once you have learnt some basic moves, you move onto small combinations, analogous to our word groups. These are small groups of moves that fit well together, such as a jab-cross or double factor block. From there we then move onto practicing a whole sentence. When learning language this is typically something simple such as "Can I have a loaf of bread please?". The sentence is grammatically correct, shows correct word groupings (for example you're not asking for a loaf of cheese), but is ultimately not something you'd ever walk into a deli in the South of France and actually say. However, practicing sentences like these helps to concrete the language into your mind, helps you with timing and pronunciation, helps you with grammar constructs and generally aids your intermediate learning.

The American Kenpo technique is analogous to these sentences. That is to say, it is practiced as it is, against a 'dummy', to help you learn combinations of moves, timing, distancing, anatomy and physiology, body mechanics, the limits of your own strength etc., as well as to concrete the moves into your mind. What is remembering the syntax of a foreign language so that is can be called instantly to mind and used is the same as what is called 'muscle memory' in martial arts; that is practicing a move so many times that it's execution becomes natural and almost without thought.

To summarise, just as our language student would rarely walk up to a counter and pronounce "I would like to buy a load of bread please!", neither would our Kenpo student approach a self defence situation by attempting to execute an entire technique on a person who was just stood there. No, rather, our language student would use the skills that he had learnt to have a conversation with the shop keeper; maybe he has to ask the price, maybe the shopkeeper suggests an alternative, maybe a greeting is exchanged...the nature of the conversation is unpredictable, just as a self defence situation is unpredictable.

A trained Kenpoist realises this and approaches the self defence situation in the same way as the conversation, not by trying to use something pre-prescribed but by reacting to the other person, using appropriate responses to motion just as the language student uses appropriate responses to language. Just because the language student began his studies by practicing phrases, he is no less able to have a conversation in a foreign language than our Kenpoist is able to fight, though he practiced his techniques against a compliant dummy. "

Makes sense to me!
Thans for everyone's input.

-Mike
 

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