A sniper takes a toll in Iraq.

[Martial Tucker]

"**MOD. NOTE - RACIAL SLUR REMOVED TO CONFORM WITH POLICY - SHESULSA**" ? ?

I suppose the first rule of warfare is to 'de-humanize the enemy'. Still.

You gotta be kidding me.....You're offended by a slur directed at an enemy soldier who has been systematically killing our Marines? I'd love to hear how you'd refer to him if he had you pinned down on an Iraqi street.....
When you watch old war movies, are you offended by the words "Kraut", or "Nip"? These were routine references to the enemy back in a time when people had a lot more respect for each other than they do now.

I deplore ethnic slurs as much as anyone, but we're not referring to a NY cabbie here, or any other normal citizen who deserves respect and courtesy regardless of ethnicity. He's an enemy sniper....call him whatever...preferably DEAD....ASAP.

 

[shesulsa]

**MODERATOR'S NOTE**

Hate speech and racial slurs are not tolerated on MartialTalk - PERIOD. Please review the Terms and conditions by clicking on the "Rules" link available on the blue menu bar at the top of every page.

-G Ketchmark / shesulsa-
-MT Senior Moderator-

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Hate Speech:
Hate speech is not allowed. Posts that contain material that is racist, sexist, homophobic, bigoted, or otherwise offensive, are not allowed. While discussion of certain social and political issues may require the use of sensitive or potentially offensive terms, outside of those limited contexts the use of such terms is not allowed on this board.

How I'd refer to him if I was pinned down, what I think watching old war movies, etc are all beyond the point. There was a rule violation, it was dealt with. The rule does not state "except when dealing with the enemy" and won't.

If we install a movie theater, and play Patton, it won't censor "Kraut" or "Limey" or "Frog". But if those are used in a post here, they will fall under our rules, and be dealt with accordingly.

If there are any further complaints, please post it in the support forum, or email [email protected]

Thank you.

 

[Martial Tucker]

How I'd refer to him if I was pinned down, what I think watching old war movies, etc are all beyond the point. There was a rule violation, it was dealt with. The rule does not state "except when dealing with the enemy" and won't.

If we install a movie theater, and play Patton, it won't censor "Kraut" or "Limey" or "Frog". But if those are used in a post here, they will fall under our rules, and be dealt with accordingly.

If there are any further complaints, please post it in the support forum, or email [email protected]

Thank you.

Fine Bob,

Your forum, your rules. My choice to participate, so I'll respect your rules. No problem.

But your comment makes it sound as if I am arguing your right to censor offensive language. I'm not. The point of my original post was not intended to support ethnic slurs, but to express surprise and dismay that someone would feel sorry in any way for someone who was systematically killing American soldiers. Just my opinion. I wasn't condoning the general use of offensive "hate language" in any way, which I made clear in the post, and I also thought the context of the discussion was such that words that are normally offensive could be used as part of the debate. Anyway, sorry to put knots in everyone's underwear.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

It's not a "feeling sorry" thing, just a rules enforcement.

Personally, if this story is true (and I do have some doubts based on my own limited research), I would hope that the "induvidual" in question gets taken out, and painfully so.

Rather than quarel over what to call him/her (dead works for me), I'm more interested in getting more facts in. I only found the original article, and no mention of it on my usual sources.

 

[KenpoTex]

My description of our enemies (even as "tame" as it was) apparently qualifies as "hate speech" under the forum guidelines. This being the case, I will refrain from using such terms on the forum in the future.

 

[Adept]

Dammit, now I want to know what you called him...

 

[KenpoTex]

Let's just say it had something to do with his choice of headgear.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

I personally find it hard to believe that ONE sniper could take out a 4-man Marine sniper team. Not saying it couldn't happen, just that it's hard to believe.

So far I've found this since posting the original thread...a six man team was wiped out in an ambush. This is far different than a sniper capping four men with head shots. If the six were killed with head shots...or even four of the six, they might have been coups de graces delivered at point blank range.

I see no reason for the Arabs to have a certain degree of competency when it comes to sniping, though. They've been fighting three years and have had plenty of time for "OJT." They can read our manuals and our popular books on sniping...and they certainly have plenty of rifles, even if they aren't state of the art.


Regards,


Steve

 

[dubljay]

I was watching the History Channel this morning, anyone else catch the sniper show marathon they had going? Strange coincidence.

 

[Andrew Green]

They've been fighting three years and have had plenty of time for "OJT."

Iraq hasn't really had a state of "peace" for a lot longer then 3 years. I would imagine there are some very experienced soldiers native to that region.

 

[Flatlander]

Iraq hasn't really had a state of "peace" for a lot longer then 3 years. I would imagine there are some very experienced soldiers native to that region.

Quite probably. And, considering that any of them with battle tested training would very likely have been allied to the Hussein regime and the Baathist party, this doesn't bode well for moderates in the region. Hence the importance of rebuilding that military structure, and providing adequate training to their new troops to offset the lopsidedness in experience and training.

 

[Tgace]

Practice doesnt make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Yes, the people over there believe it is one really good guy, but we intenet jockies, we know better....

Well, considering that the only thing we have to go on is an article circulated among a bunch of leftist, America hating sites, and a quote from a specialist, it's really not like the evidence is exactly stacking up. It's not extremely hard to apply Occam's Razor to these type of situations.

You can couple that with the inaccurate and obviously skewed statements about this "snipers" abilities, i.e. shots from 200 meters (nothing impressive) his low body count (lots of wounded for a skilled sniper shooting at 200 meters), and lack of real or anecdotal evidence (a couple quotes from a few low rank soldiers assumed to be real and reliable), I would have to dismiss this guy as an urban legend fueled by a few, otherwise, unrelated sniper incidents.

There's no evidence it's one guy, there's less evidence he has any real skill. I have no real skill, but I can take a Remington 700 bolt action rifle with a decent scope (Say, Leupold Vari-X III) and consistently put every round within a 2.5 to 3 inch circle at 200 meters. That's not even the precision of the rifle (i'm not good enough to take a precision rifle like that and shoot to it's limits). Still. 2.5 to 3 inches is plenty to take consistent, high probability of death, headshots, even on a helmeted target. I wouldn't be wounding half of them or more. Today's marine snipers can put shots consistently in side a quarter out to 200 plus meters.

As for the 4 man sniper team, and I listed already, that story sounds suspiciously like a 6 man sniper team ambushed by a group of armed Iraqis in their hide, hardly the same as one guy taking them out at range. I think this is just a hodge-podge of jumbled stories cobbled together to give the anti-American left someone to cheer for.

Kind of sad when certain US citizens get their kicks fantasizing about an Iraqi sniper shooting American kids. I guess those guys have to get their joy however they can. What's next, "baby killer" chants and spitting on returning soldiers?

That having been said, there are a lot of insurgents who are extremely skilled fighters. As we have been sending our best and brightest young men to try and put Iraq back together, muslims from all over the Islamic world have been sending their best and brightests to tear it apart again. It isn't the Iraqis themselves that we are facing such opposition from, it's the young Syrians, Iranians, Saudis, Pakistanis, Egyptians, Yemenis, etc, etc, etc, who decided they wanted to be part of the party.

They're flocking from all over the Islamic world to fight America. Iraq has turned in to one, big, gigantic terrorist roach motel.

Iraq may have had nothing to do with 9/11, but the very people who perpetrated 9/11 and the ones who would do it again are there right now in mortal combat with our soldiers. We might as well kill and capture them now, while we have them all in one place.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Iraq hasn't really had a state of "peace" for a lot longer then 3 years. I would imagine there are some very experienced soldiers native to that region.

We could say the Mideast hasn't had any peace for well over sixty years. I think we assume that the Arabs' strategic incompetence translates into tactical incompetence...not so all the time. Witness Afghanistan. Granted, they were facing a declining Soviet army at the time, but Jihadists there learned to snipe. Iran is likely providing training and equipment to their factions as well.

Clearly the Jihadists are learning about IED's and their use.


Regards,


Steve

 

[sgtmac_46]

We could say the Mideast hasn't had any peace for well over sixty years. I think we assume that the Arabs' strategic incompetence translates into tactical incompetence...not so all the time. Witness Afghanistan. Granted, they were facing a declining Soviet army at the time, but Jihadists there learned to snipe. Iran is likely providing training and equipment to their factions as well.

Clearly the Jihadists are learning about IED's and their use.


Regards,


Steve

We could say that the Mideast hasn't ever really been peaceful, though at least under the Ottoman Turks it was orderly.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

http://www.armytimes.com/content/editorial/pdf/at_sniper071505.pdf

An account of a sniper taking his shot. The video is pretty dramatic...here:

http://www.armytimes.com/content/editorial/pdf/at_sniper071505.pdf



That's way too close. No wonder they got these guys.

Anybody speak Arabic? I'd love to know what they're saying.


Regards,


Steve

 

[Tgace]

Those guys were as much "snipers" as the beltway "snipers" were....almost every soldier who has ever shot an enemy from concealment can qualify now I guess.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Those guys were as much "snipers" as the beltway "snipers" were....almost every soldier who has ever shot an enemy from concealment can qualify now I guess.

The beltway snipers had a better hide.

At any rate, these guys couldn't have been more than 100 meters away. Sniping at that range against armed troops should be considered a suicide mission. It's like walking up and ramming a stick in to a hornets nest. You get one guy, two if you're lucky, and his PO'd buddies drag you out of your hide by your heels and beat you to death.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Those guys were as much "snipers" as the beltway "snipers" were....almost every soldier who has ever shot an enemy from concealment can qualify now I guess.

The term is used rather loosely, and has been since Viet Nam.

However, the guy had a Dragunov, the standard East Block sniper rifle. He was one of two, so perhaps the other was his spotter...though why at that range one would need a spotter is beyond me. They had a "hide," which actually would have been a pretty good one had the range been longer. I guess the one thing that would perhaps qualify them as befitting the term is the fact that the Army itself is calling them "snipers."

That said, they certainly don't fit a professional Western definition of sniping, otherwise they'd have taken the head shot at that range (or even triple it...the Dragunov isn't all that good)...and had a means of egress that would have kept them from getting caught.

A digression, TGace, but as a cop you might like the "bait car" video on that same page.


Regards,


Steve