a question from an ignorant brother

C

chufeng

Guest
whats the argument?....what other proof do you need?.....it seems totally clear....the line that does it is...when taught from that perspective of proper body mechanics....so there is the comparison. what more do you want?

I'm hoping that is tongue in cheek...
Is this the same TaiJiFan that jumped all over the YiLi method of TaiJi...somehow, we didn't get it?:wink:


I'm a bit surprised that you have stayed out of this for as long as you have...trying to preserve the pure TaiJiQuan and all.:wink:

chufeng
 
Y

yilisifu

Guest
Indeed. The (internal) mechanics used in Taiji (and other "internal" martial arts) are NOT the same as used in Kenpo.

Some of the outer mechanics are very similar and even identical. But as I said earlier, certain principles used in ALL martial arts are very similar or identical. However, that does not make these arts the "same" at all.

An F-16 and a Volkswagen do have some things in common, but they aren't the same animal.
 
T

Taiji fan

Guest
I'm hoping that is tongue in cheek...
nope......in respect of the guys opinion....he thinks taiji and kenpo are similar in the body mechanics leading to the applications.....fine. If he is finding similarities in his studies then thats fine....

Is this the same TaiJiFan that jumped all over the YiLi method of TaiJi...somehow, we didn't get it?
actually what I said was if your knowledge of taijiquan was limited to simplified and competition styles you were not getting as true a representation of taijiquan as you might think.;) and why did I stay out of it so long........? because Yilisifu seems to be the only person replying who can give a balanced argument without degenerating into the playground stuff........

if Doc is unable to present you with the 'facts' you so greatly desire, why not present the reasons that you think taiji and kenpo are not the same then we could have something more interesting and constructive to read.
 

Doc

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if Doc is unable to present you with the 'facts' you so greatly desire, why not present the reasons that you think taiji and kenpo are not the same then we could have something more interesting and constructive to read.
Heeyyyyyyy! That's what I said.. Something better happen soon. I'm moving on.
 
C

chufeng

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because Yilisifu seems to be the only person replying who can give a balanced argument without degenerating into the playground stuff

Posting actual biographical information is "unbalanced?"
:rolleyes:
chufeng
 
T

Taiji fan

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let me clarify...it aint what you say its the way that you say it...
 

Doc

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Originally posted by Taiji fan
let me clarify...it aint what you say its the way that you say it...
It was really simple.

A statement was made, reasons why the statement was made, as well as from whom the information was drawn and why. I thought I answered the question.

However the answer did not give anyone an opportunity to defend their position in the manner they wanted. There was an obvious disagreement and I had no problem with that, but I sensed what was wanted was an answer where antagonists could go down a list and simply say "no you're wrong" to everything.

I admit to not considering myself an expert in Taiji in general or what they teach in particular, and don't claim to know what they do. How could I? But I also wouldn't make flat statements about a Kenpo I don't know anything about as well.

My statement was at least conceptual and followed by some qualifications. The other side presented a flat "this is not the same as this" without knowing at least one side, and took it upon themselves to speak for all taiji.
I do not speak for all Kenpo, only my own expertise.

It was not my intent to start such a confrontation and if someone had simply said, "My Taiji is not anything like the Kenpo I've seen." we could have had a great discussion where we both learned something.

I apologize again for any misunderstanding. Thanks.
 
T

Taiji fan

Guest
so tell me more about Kenpo.........I do vaugly remember an article in a British MA magazine actually refering to Taiji Kenpo...but to be honest I don't really recal what it was about. What is Kenpo? How is it similar to Taiji?


my previous comment..in the last post was directed to Chufeng and companions....;)
 

Doc

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Originally posted by yilisifu
It is noteworthy to add that other kenpo practicioners have not agreed with Doc's assertion that kenpo and taiji are the same.

I'm sure all Taiji people agree with you , (except the ones that agree with me). Apparently you are unaware there are different generations and interpretations of kenpo and there is considerable disagreement among it's practitioners about many things. I doubt you have talked to anyone who has ever seen what I'm talking about, no matter what style they claim.
 
Y

yilisifu

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Well, you're right about my not ever meeting anyone who has heard of what you've mentioned.

However, the original questions still begs an answer. HOW are Taiji and Kenpo the same?
 

Matt Stone

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Originally posted by Doc
It was really simple.

Glad you think so. I thought my question was as simple as it could be.

However the answer did not give anyone an opportunity to defend their position in the manner they wanted. There was an obvious disagreement and I had no problem with that, but I sensed what was wanted was an answer where antagonists could go down a list and simply say "no you're wrong" to everything.

Not at all, but thanks for misinterpreting. What I was looking for was an explanation for why you thought two very distinct arts were so similar. You didn't answer.

I admit to not considering myself an expert in Taiji in general or what they teach in particular, and don't claim to know what they do. How could I? But I also wouldn't make flat statements about a Kenpo I don't know anything about as well.

So, you point out my lack of information regarding kenpo, point out my limited knowledge of taiji, and state that I have no basis for my assumption that they are not alike, then turn around and state your own lack of knowledge in taiji but somehow are still able to profess they are the same??? :confused:

Given - you know about EPAK kenpo, having studied at the foot of EP himself. Given - you know nothing about taiji and how it is studied (your own statement). But you can state as a matter of fact that they are the same? How do you justify that?

Given - I know nothing about EPAK kenpo, only having seen it in a school once a long time ago. Given - I study Xingyi, Bagua and Taiji, so I am familiar with those arts. Fact - I have never stated any knowledge about kenpo, only that from what little I have seen of it, kenpo and taiji are not the same. I asked for clarification from someone in a position of authority in kenpo (you), but rather than having been provided some form of comparison, I was simply told I don't know enough to question your statement... Whatever.

My statement was at least conceptual and followed by some qualifications. The other side presented a flat "this is not the same as this" without knowing at least one side, and took it upon themselves to speak for all taiji. I do not speak for all Kenpo, only my own expertise.

Your qualifications don't mean squat to me. I don't care who you trained with nor for how long. Really. A person could train for years with the best masters available, but if that person's learning, understanding and knowledge suck, then he is still only a half-*** student (regardless of lineage).

I am no master (even though you alleged that I thought myself to be one), hell I'm not even a qualified advanced student. However, being that I am a student with a student's concerns and a student's ego, I ask questions, and I don't care what rank or level of status or presige the person claims to enjoy. I ask anyway. If the questions are too hard for you to answer or too uncomfortable to entertain, that really isn't my problem is it? If you aren't ready for the questions, you shouldn't make statements in public that may incur enquiry...

You tried to wow me with your resume. Your resume doesn't impress me, and your arguments that I should somehow simply acquiesce because of a list of famous people that you have met fall far short of their goal. Impress me with your personal knowledge, not by the allegation that because of who you trained with your knowledge by association must be beyond reproach. Respect is earned, period. You can show me all the trophies, certificates, belts and pictures you want, and I'll still not be impressed with you as a person.

It was not my intent to start such a confrontation and if someone had simply said, "My Taiji is not anything like the Kenpo I've seen." we could have had a great discussion where we both learned something.

Sorry I didn't pose my answer in the form of a question... My taiji is not anything like the kenpo I've seen. Would you care to explain to me how you think kenpo and taiji are the same art? That still sounds a lot like the question I have been asking for several days, but maybe it comes across more to your liking this way...

Y'know, nevermind. After fighting through the morass of your evasions and half-answers, I don't care to hear the explanation anymore. :rolleyes:

Have a nice evening. Sorry if I pissed anyone off with this, but I'm tired of asking nicely over and over again and somehow being made to be the bad guy in this...

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:
 

Doc

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Originally posted by yilisifu
Well, you're right about my not ever meeting anyone who has heard of what you've mentioned.

However, the original questions still begs an answer. HOW are Taiji and Kenpo the same?

:confused: :rolleyes:
As Bugs would say, "What a ..............."
 

Matt Stone

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Originally posted by Doc
:confused: :rolleyes:
As Bugs would say, "What a ..............."

What a maroon...

Nice to see someone of your elevated rank and esteemed expertise can reply to a simple question with such a mature and well-thought out rebuttal.

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:
 

Doc

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Originally posted by Yiliquan1
What a maroon...

Nice to see someone of your elevated rank and esteemed expertise can reply to a simple question with such a mature and well-thought out rebuttal.

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:
I did quite that sometime ago, but it requires sufficient intellect to detect, especially if it isn't what you want to hear. Funny how no one answered my question, and simply ignored all that was presented in favor of the droning loop of a simpleton response. All things considered, I guess that was to be expected. considering the initial responses.

ThThThThThThThThThat's all folks!

I have a job. I can't play anymore. Next time you bring the ball.:D
 
C

chufeng

Guest
Excuse me DOC,

YOU made the original claim...
When asked to explain...you said we couldn't understand.
Then you asked us to prove what you said was wrong...I can claim ANYTHING and then ask someone to prove it wrong...I'm sorry, too much work...YOU explain your claim and then I'll have something to respond to.

Since I (and just about everyone who practices kempo) don't have access to the secret sub level 4 material, how could I possibly respond...on the other hand, there are tons of TaiJiQuan references.

Even the esteemed TaiJiFan (who doesn't like the way I post) has asked you to explain your position.

I never questioned your ability as a martial artist...never questioned your claims about who you trained with...
I posted biographical material about your teachers and none of it said anything about TaiJiQuan...

I guess in my own unbalanced way, I still would like an answer.
BUT, I doubt that I'll ever get one...

:asian:
chufeng
 

Matt Stone

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Gather adult explanations, descriptions and answers to our questions from Doc in one hand, and feces in the other.

Which one fills up first?

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:
 
R

RyuShiKan

Guest
Originally posted by Yiliquan1
Gather adult explanations, descriptions and answers to our questions from Doc in one hand, and feces in the other.

Which one fills up first?

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:


Is this like that question is the glass half empty of half full?:rofl:
 
Y

yilisifu

Guest
Yep, but you wouldn't want to drink out of either one afterwards.:D

Well, I thought my question was about as simple as they come; HOW are kenpo and taiji the same, and after 7 pages of arguements, it hasn't been answered.

Facts that HAVE been established are that:

(A) The statement about them being the same was made by someone who doesn't know taiji by his own admission.

(B) The statement was made by someone who practices a form of kenpo (sub-level 4) which other kenpo practicioners know nothing about.....

We haven't been told anything about sub-level 4, or how it is similar to taiji...we've been treated to a colorful bio, but that's about it.

And after looking at the whole of it, it's clear that we're not going to get any answers except something along the lines of "My kenpo is different from everyone else's kenpo and my taiji and your taiji aren't the same....." sans explanations.

Time to move on.
 
R

RyuShiKan

Guest
I have read through this post and it mirrors several others on this board where claims were made and questioned were asked for the claimer to elucidate but was never done or pages of double speak were supplied as an answer.
 
R

RyuShiKan

Guest
OK, Ill ask and maybe I will get an answer.

1.What is Sub Level 4 Kenpo?
2.How are Kenpo and Chinese Taiji Chuan the same?
(Which kind of kenpo are you referring to BTW?)
 
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