a question from an ignorant brother

[yilisifu]

I THINK I understand what Doc is trying to say insofar as Taijichuan and Kenpo being the same - very quick and powerful and so on.

But

Their methods of application are entirely different. I have studied Taiji for many, many years now and I am also very familiar with Kenpo and have seen Mr. Parker in action in days of yore. Mr. Parker was an incredible man; a genius. But what he did was not Taiji at all. The end result might have been the same (the opponent is defeated very quickly and struck with enormous force), but the method(s) are entirely different.

To compare one to the other is like comparing baseball to hockey.

Also, Doc is incorrect about Taiji being the "mother" of all Chinese martial arts. The earliest records regarding Taijichuan only go back about 300 years or so. Many, many Chinese systems were in existance long before that. By Chinese standards, Taijichuan is a relative newcomer.

 

[Doc]

Well now that I'm told Grandmaster Ark Wong, Douglas Wong, James Woo, and "Tiny Lefiti, didn't know what t they were talking about, and I don't understand the kenpo I was taught and teach. I give up. I'm tired. You win.

 

[yilisifu]

I didn't say they didn't know what they were talking about. Perhaps you misunderstood what they were saying.

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Doc
Well now that I'm told Grandmaster Ark Wong, Douglas Wong, James Woo, and "Tiny Lefiti, didn't know what t they were talking about, and I don't understand the kenpo I was taught and teach. I give up. I'm tired. You win.

You state on your website that neither Ark Wong nor Douglas Wong were Taiji teachers... I have no idea who Tiny Lefiti is/was. You can name all the names you want, and attempt to link yourself to all sorts of so-called authorities, but the simple fact is that people can be wrong.

Maybe you have a very unique insight into kenpo. Then again, maybe not. Maybe your non-Taiji-practicing/teaching teachers were correct when they somehow equated your training as the equivalent of Taiji training. Then again, maybe they didn't have a clue. Maybe Yilisifu, Chufeng and I are correct. Perhaps we don't have a functioning grey matter cell among the three of us.

You give up quickly. All I asked for was an explanation of how you think kenpo and Taiji are somehow related. If you were/are able to provide some insight to that, perhaps it could be shown that other kenpo practitioners and Taiji practitioners were incorrect and that you possess a unique understanding of both arts.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[yilisifu]

If I'm not mistaken, Ark Wong practiced Mok-Ga, Jimmy Woo practiced another form of Shao-lin, and Doug Wong (who I've met) developed his own system known as White Dragon which seems to be a form of Shao-lin as well.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by yilisifu
If I'm not mistaken, Ark Wong practiced Mok-Ga, Jimmy Woo practiced another form of Shao-lin, and Doug Wong (who I've met) developed his own system known as White Dragon which seems to be a form of Shao-lin as well.

nope!

 

[chufeng]

FYI...

Ark Yuey Wong
1987
Kung Fu Artist of the Year
Ark Yuey Wong was introduced to kung fu as a child in China, when his grandfather's will stipulated that only family members who studied the martial arts would receive any money. Wong practiced alone until age seven, when he began classes under Lam Ark Fun, a respected instructor who trained him in the choy li fut style. Wong later studied mok gar under Ho Ark Yeng, and gave private kung fu lessons while enrolled in college.
Excerpt from a Black Belt article 1987

WHITE LOTUS KUNG FU SYSTEM Teacher, trainer and author, Master Douglas Lim Wong is the founder of the modern-day White Lotus system of kung-fu. Born and raised in Los Angeles, California, Sifu Wong has traveled throughout the world to spread his art through seminars, training camps, lectures, movies, television, radio talk shows, magazines, newspapers and books...He has been involved in the martial arts for the past forty (40) years. He has trained under many top instructors from a variety of kung-fu systems. Among them is Grandmaster Ark Yuey Wong of the Five Animals (Ng Ying Ga) and the Five Families (Ng Ga Kin) styles; Grandmaster Share K. Lew of the Tao Tan Pai system; Grandmaster Doo Wai of the White Tiger system (Bak Fu Pai); Master Hsu Hong Chi of the God-Dragon Hsing Yi system; Master Haumea "Tiny" Lefiti of the Mok Gar system; Sifu Walter Wong of the Wing Chun system; and acupressure massage, philosophy and acupuncture under Dr. Andrew Ming.
Excerpt from the WebSite MartialInfo.com

If you have other sources for what you claim, please help us by posting them. Thanks

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Matt Stone]

Seems pretty definitive to me...

And no Taijiquan nor Kenpo noted at all...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by chufeng
FYI...



If you have other sources for what you claim, please help us by posting them. Thanks

:asian:
chufeng

Ark Wong - Five Animal & Taiji
(not Muk Gar)

Tiny Lefiti - Splashing Hands, Five Animal
(not Muk Gar)

Doug Wong Five Animal, White Lotus
(not Shaolin)

James Woo - Taiji & Hung Gar

Ed Parker - Taiji, Hung Gar, Splashing Hands, Chaun fa, Choi Li fut, Jiu-jitsu, Karate-do, Kenpo, submission wrestling, Small Circle Jiu-jitsu, San Soo, etc.

Add Terry Dunn - TaijiQuon, QiQong

I'm afraid my sources are dubious which is why I do not wish to have a discussion with those that have made a declaration after observing a "kenpo class."

I also have no doubt that some know of what they do, however they are not necessarily privledged to what I do or what I was taught or told by those that precede us both (unless some of you are in your sixties). My source is a simple one: I was there. Most of the name posted I know or knew personally. The article posted was essentially wrong. Should you bump into any of those people who are still alive, mention my name and they will verify my association and knowledge.
Already too much.
End.

 

[yilisifu]

Gosh - and I thought Mok Ga WAS one of the original five "family" styles of Shao-lin which was taught by Ark Wong.....

And for all these years, I had been told that Mr. Parker had trained under William Chow.......

Huh. Even Ed said so.

Well, maybe he was Wong

 

[chufeng]

I'm afraid my sources are dubious

If they are dubious, why post them?
I didn't see a rebuttle on ArK Wong's history by him or his students...Why?

At any rate, I don't want you revealing too much about yourself...
As it's so hush, hush...I hope I haven't said too much...

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Doc
Ark Wong - Five Animal & Taiji
(not Muk Gar)

Tiny Lefiti - Splashing Hands, Five Animal
(not Muk Gar)

Doug Wong Five Animal, White Lotus
(not Shaolin)

James Woo - Taiji & Hung Gar

Ed Parker - Taiji, Hung Gar, Splashing Hands, Chaun fa, Choi Li fut, Jiu-jitsu, Karate-do, Kenpo, submission wrestling, Small Circle Jiu-jitsu, San Soo, etc.

Add Terry Dunn - TaijiQuon, QiQong

I'm afraid my sources are dubious which is why I do not wish to have a discussion with those that have made a declaration after observing a "kenpo class."

I also have no doubt that some know of what they do, however they are not necessarily privledged to what I do or what I was taught or told by those that precede us both (unless some of you are in your sixties). My source is a simple one: I was there. Most of the name posted I know or knew personally. The article posted was essentially wrong. Should you bump into any of those people who are still alive, mention my name and they will verify my association and knowledge.
Already too much.
End.

What kinds of Taijiquan (note the 'a' in the word quan - an 'o' is incorrect spelling) did these folks train in? I'm curious... Also, I thought splashing hands was something that James McNeil was propagating... While I have only been in this biz since '85, I can't remember ever hearing of anyone other than him doing it...

Please enlighten me, if it doesn't expose your secret side overly much...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[yilisifu]

The term "chuan fa" is the Chinese pronunciation of the Japanese "kenpo".......

Actually, "chuan-fa" is a generic term which refers to virtually all Chinese systems.....so to say that someone learned chuan-fa and then also include several Chinese systems is a bit redundant...

Splashing Hands just recently made it into the martial arts magazines via James McNeil....?

Submission wrestling...? That was just a kind of up-and-coming thing when Ed passed away.

San Soo wasn't around when Mr. Parker started teaching, either. Neither was Small Circle Jujutsu which was developed by Wally Jay (who, as I recall, trained under Henry Okazaki in Hawaii) many years after Ed had established his Kenpo system and organization.

I have no doubt that Mr. Parker was exposed to many martial arts during his too-short time with us here, and I've no doubt that he and his art were influenced over the decades by some of them. But I don't believe that he made in-depth studies of them (as a student). His primary teacher was Prof. William K.S. Chow.
For the record, I will state that in my opinion, Ed Parker was a martial arts genius and a wonderfully gifted teacher and a fine human being.

 

[chufeng]

Another excerpt...this one by the Woo Foundation:

The following history on the art of San Soo was written in May 1993 by the Jimmy H. Woo Association based on information provided by Grand Master Woo. Although there have been some speculations in connecting this art to another lineage, there is no documentation to support these claims. The Masters who studied with Lo Si Fu for many years will continue to support the family lineage provided by Grand Master Woo...
...Young Chin Siu Dek (Jimmy’s real name) was taught by his Great Uncle Chin Siu Hung who was nicknamed Chin Neow Gee, which means “Crazy Devil.” Hung was an extremely large man, 6’5” tall and weighing well over 320 pounds. Following in his grandfather’s footsteps, Hung became a well-known fighter, teaching in his own SAN SOO school. He was overlord for the entire province, which at that time, late 1800’s and until 1941 was about the size of Orange County, CA. He had complete control over nearly every aspect of the lives of the people in the area. No one started a business, moved or made any other major decisions without consulting Hung.
From the age of five on Dek was to be his Great Uncle’s prize student. He learned extremely fast and loved the contact and grueling workouts on hard floors. In his teens, Dek became a traveling teacher of Tsoi Li Ho Fut Hung; the official name of the martial art perfected hundreds of years before in the monastery very near his small village...
...Destiny brought Chin Siu Dek to America as Jimmy H. Woo to preserve the ancient art of Choi (Ga Kuhn How) Lee (Ga Ma) Ho (Ga) Fut hung (Ga), SAN SOO.

Hung was only one of the family systems he taught...
...and he apparently didn't call it Hung Gar, but San Soo..

regards
:asian:
chufeng

 

[chufeng]

A little more research reveals the following:

Splashing Hands, developed at the Shaolin Temple in the late 1700's, is a close in fighting system of kung-fu. It was taught to those monks who were in charge of guarding the temple gates. Splashing Hands, named for the way the hands move as if one is shaking water from them, is valued for its explosive, high-speed hand and footwork and its simultaneous offensive and defensive techniques. Historically, only a relatively small number of students learned this system. Even after Splashing Hands was introduced to fighters not associated with the Shaolin Temple, it never became a widely-practiced art. Those who knew the effectiveness of the system were reluctant to share their knowledge with others. Because of this secrecy, it is unknown whether or not Splashing Hands is still practiced today on the Chinese mainland. We do know the style was brought to Taiwan in the late 1940's and early 1950's, where a former nationalist army general taught a selected few students.

So the Splashing Hands taught by McNeil is a revival of an older art, not his own invention (Mr. McNeil never claimed to invent it either)

...and...

Tiny lived most of his young life in Hawaii where he learned karate. While he was serving in the marines he was stationed in Korea where he learned kung-fu. Later in Taiwan he learned 'Splashing Hands' from a famous general. Before he left Taiwan he asked his teacher where he could finish his training in Splashing Hands. His teacher gave him a letter to give to Master Ark Yuey Wong asking him to accept Tiny as his student. At first Master Wong refused claiming he knew nothing of the style. However, with Tiny's persistence he was finally accepted

Haumea Lefiti did learn Splashing Hands and continued his study under Master Ark Wong (who, by inferrence, must have known it also)...
In my research, however, I cannot find where these gentlemen trained in or taught TaiJiQuan.
...and unfortunately, Haumea Lefiti, Ark Wong, and Ed Parker are all dead, so we can't ask them...

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Doc]

Splashing Hands just recently made it into the martial arts magazines via James McNeil....?

No Splashing Hands has been around as long as I can remember (I'm older than you). Tiny also studied Kenpo as well)

Submission wrestling...? That was just a kind of up-and-coming thing when Ed passed away.

Way off. Tell that to Parker's good friend Gene LeBell who was a world champion in the fifties. Submission wrestling existed even in Hawaii when Parker was a kid.

San Soo wasn't around when Mr. Parker started teaching, either.

Yes San Soo was around. When I was a kid there was a San Soo school we use to visit not far from Ark Wong. Ed Parker began teaching in the early fifties before he made black in 1953.

Neither was Small Circle Jujutsu which was developed by Wally Jay (who, as I recall, trained under Henry Okazaki in Hawaii) many years after Ed had established his Kenpo system and organization.

That is correct but that doesn't mean Parker didn't learn. Okazaki worked with Chow as well and actually emphasized a lot of grond fighting from his influence.

I have no doubt that Mr. Parker was exposed to many martial arts during his too-short time with us here, and I've no doubt that he and his art were influenced over the decades by some of them. But I don't believe that he made in-depth studies of them (as a student). His primary teacher was Prof. William K.S. Chow.

Actually, his primary teacher was all of the above and more. The art that ultimately evolved that most know or even as I teach it (which is different), has almost no relationship to Chow who was Ed Parker's 2nd teacher. Chow was Parker's "formal" teacher of the time to which he applied his "formal lineage," but he learned infinitely more from others he worked with over the years that included all of the people I mentioned and more in the Chinese community. I must also give special mention to Lao boon from Hung Gar who I didn't list before. What survived is Chow's philosophy of practicality and function and pretty much that's all. Chow gave him his black belt. Although he didn't enter into a formal "student teacher" relationship with all of them, some he actually did, but always acknowledged Chow as his formal teacher. But what Chow taught him was a drop in the bucket compared to what Parker learned in his own evolution and study with others. So to suggest that Chow was his teacher and he was only "exposed and influenced" by others would be false and misleading. He indeed make indepth studies and in that process and genius, influenced others in their art as well.

For the record, I will state that in my opinion, Ed Parker was a martial arts genius and a wonderfully gifted teacher and a fine human being. [/B]

And my best friend.

 

[Matt Stone]

We've discussed Mr. Parker's lineage front and back, and your info seems on the surface to be contradictory to the facts published about his and other people's histories. Why, then, would you think that the published accounts seem to contradict yours?

To restate an earlier question, could you please provide specifics regarding the ways in which you think Kenpo and Taijiquan are the same art? Please provide examples beyond "they step with one foot and strike with the same side just like we do," or "we have this throw, and so do they." Please provide examples that are beyond mere physical mimickry, since that alone would proceed into a discussion of how, based on that tenuous comparison, all arts are then one art.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[chufeng]

Well DOC,

Now you've gone and spilt the beans...but, I believe your most recent post...so why all of the secrecy up front?

You have a wealth of personal knowledge that you could share...

I'm still interested in the TaiJiQuan connection to Ed Parker's Kempo...beyond the all arts are one idea we've already addressed...

Thanks, in advance, for your response.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[yilisifu]

Doc - you're probably older than me, but not by much.. However, I still don't see any connections between Taijichuan and Kenpo...

 

[chufeng]

DOC=Ron Chapel. (would have gotten to this sooner but my profile buttons weren't working)

From his home page (heck-of-a lot of pop-up ads, Ron):

"Ron" Chapél is the foremost authority on SubLevel Four Kenpo Concepts™. Since the passing of Senior Grandmaster Ed Parker, Ron Chapél has become a sought after, internationally known instructor. He began working on Advanced American Kenpo Concepts with his teacher as part of a book and video series. Ron Chapél through Mr. Parker’s teachings over the years, and his volume of personal notes, continues to develop the Legacy of Grandmanster Parker. SubLevel Four Concepts explores the side of Kenpo that few have seen. SubLevel Four curriculum includes, Control Manipulation Theory, and Cavity Presses (Nerve Strikes) with Destructive Sequencing. These are the elements of American Kenpo that were explored with him by Professor Parker throughout their almost thirty year relationship. Additionally newer developed concepts of Misalignment Technology, use of Spatial Distortion, etc.

In addition to continuing Grandmaster Parker’s teachings and developing SubLevel Four Kenpo Concepts, Ron Chapél is the Senior Master Professor of the University of Martial Science. The University reflects his commitment to furthering Ed Parker's American Kenpo, over and above “belt mills.” The University emphasizes the educational aspect of Kenpo, endeavoring to make the "school" function as a college university by emphasizing knowledge through course work over unearned “belts,” and questionable skills.

Functioning as the parent of an educational institution, the Ed Parker's Institute, requires teacher certifications over and above belt rankings of its University instructors. No one has teaching or promotion authority without specific certifications, and no one person may promote anyone. Only the University Board of Credentials grants rank and degrees, as any other academic institution. All Black Belt ranks are considered Honorary or Emeritus. The University also requires completion of specific Course work curriculum, and awards degrees accordingly. The Institute is the "Kenpo School" of the millennium. Their growth is slow because the standards are high, uncompromising, and are not driven by a need for numbers or money.

Ron Chapél has lived in Southern California since childhood. He has been in the martial arts since he was a young boy. He began his training along side Douglas Wong and with his uncle Ark Wong, Grandmaster of the Five Animal System of Kung-Fu Style. He holds Black Belt rankings or equivalent in various arts. In 1963, Ron Chapél met Ed Parker at a local tournament, and shortly afterwards became a friend and subsequent student. Quickly, their close friendship over shadowed the student teacher relationship. This relationship lasted with Ron Chapél as a best friend and private student without interruption, until Professor Parker's death. Ron Chapél also continues his 40 year relationship with the Ed Parker Legacy by promoting Ed Parker Jr. to Black Belt.

Several years before Ed Parker's death, Ron Chapél was awarded his 7th degree Black Belt Diploma after completing an assigned thesis project examining the rank structure of the IKKA. Since the passing of Grandmaster Parker, He has been awarded his 8th, and 9th ranking by the prestigious American Teachers Association of the Martial Arts, (ATAMA) founded by Shaolin Kenpo Grandmaster Ralph Castro, with Grandmaster Castro present for his 8th. Additionally, He has been awarded a 9th degree from Dan-Zan Ryu Jiu-Jitsu, a 9th degree from the World Federation of Karate-Do, and a 9th degree from the Universal Martial Arts Society. He was awarded the position of 10th degree from the University and ATAMA . He also has an Instructor ranking in W.A.R. (within arms reach) and a Black Belt in Shoto-Kan. He has studied Goju-Ryu, Shorin Ryu, Hap-Ki-Do and more. Ron Chapél has been recognized and awarded a proclamation by the City of Los Angeles City Council as a “Martial Arts Pioneer” and as the “founder of a Martial Arts Institution” in Southern California. Further, the University is the only American Kenpo school in the world certified by the World Federation of Karate-Do.

In addition to Ron Chap'el 's extensive martial arts training, he has thirty years of law enforcement experience. He has worked in law enforcement as a uniformed street cop, and as a State Police Officer. He has been assigned to Protective Services protecting the Governor and Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of California, and most recently in “Witness Protection” and Judicial Security as a Special Deputy U.S. Marshal,

Ron Chapél became keenly aware of the need to be able to control the level of destruction in arrest and control situations. With Grandmaster Parker, He developed the principles of Sub-Level Four Concepts, to assist law enforcement, and for a proposed book and video series project.

Sub-level Four Kenpo is a component of Kenpo that gives a student an effective alternative in subduing an opponent not found in “motion kenpo.” Ron Chapél specifically implemented these principles in his Law Enforcement training seminars and created the "Universal Arrest and Control System" and has taught it in several police academies. He continues to teach his system to police officers everywhere.

Ron Chapél has not only earned his Ph.D. in Anatomical Physics, but has lectured and taught credit courses on college campuses, as well. Ron Chap'el was featured (along with Grandmaster Ed Parker ) in some of the very first issues of Inside Kung-Fu Magazine, and has also been featured many times in Black Belt Magazine. Most recently he has been in Black Belt Magazine discussing "Nerve Strikes."

Ron Chapél is considered by many, to be one of the foremost teachers of Ed Parker's Kenpo because of the depth of his knowledge and his continued examination and innovation of the Ed Parker System. With a strong desire to maintain a base system as a point of reference for the Kenpo world, Ron Chapél has continuously shown his teachings and interpretations to be a superior curriculum. Sub-Level Four, for some, represents the pinnacle of American Kenpo. Ron Chapél proves that American Kenpo is a dynamic, highly functional art, even with the passing of its Creator and only Grandmaster Ed Parker.

Bio written by Andrew King,

SubLevel Four Kenpo Concepts, Ohio State University

Still don't see any TaiJi in there...
Still curious...where is the connection, beyond what we've already identified as "all arts are one?"

:asian:
chufeng