A Question About Initial Blocks in the Palgwe Series

[dancingalone]

Performed correctly according to KKW standards, is the initial block prior to a second block or counter performed in half-facing position or should the hips and torso be directly square to the front?

For example, just consider the first movement in the first Palgwe. Half-presentation or full on?

 

[puunui]

I learned it as half presentation, to use your terminology.

 

[dancingalone]

Thanks. I've seen it done both ways on Youtube, hence the question.

Funny enough, you'll notice the Tang Soo Do people who generally stray closer to the karate side, usually DON'T shade towards the side on the block. And yet this is rather common practice in Shotokan.

 

[leadleg]

Performed correctly according to KKW standards, is the initial block prior to a second block or counter performed in half-facing position or should the hips and torso be directly square to the front?

For example, just consider the first movement in the first Palgwe. Half-presentation or full on?

The stances on palgwe 1 are either front or back,the first move is front stance inside block, to front stance middle punch.
I do not understand the half facing movement,although it could be that I learned from a mu duk kwan practicioner and I use GM Richard Chuns book as a reference for palgwe's.
I have never heard of a half facing position in KKW style either.If you wanted a half facing postion with an inside block I would say it needed be done in a back stance.

 

[dancingalone]

The stances on palgwe 1 are either front or back,the first move is front stance inside block, to front stance middle punch.
I do not understand the half facing movement,although it could be that I learned from a mu duk kwan practicioner and I use GM Richard Chuns book as a reference for palgwe's.
I have never heard of a half facing position in KKW style either.If you wanted a half facing postion with an inside block I would say it needed be done in a back stance.

Got a copy of the KKW textbook handy? What does it say? I do not own a copy myself otherwise I would consult it to satisfy my curiosity.

 

[leadleg]

Got a copy of the KKW textbook handy? What does it say? I do not own a copy myself otherwise I would consult it to satisfy my curiosity.

I own a copy but it does not have the palgwe's in it.I do study the poomse and have attended seminars with some the KKW instructors and have never heard anything like half presentation. You either do the stance or not,no partial stances. Although it is possible I have missed something.
I would not be surprised if some instructors would not put some explanation as they try to replicate some s/d scenario.

 

[puunui]

I think dancingalone means your shoulder position on the block. Are your shoulders square or angled when doing the block? I was taught that your shoulders are angled, not square like on a punch.

 

[dancingalone]

In Shotokan, the idea is just to set yourself up for a full waist turn on the second move and the reverse rotation on the first block gives you some power, albeit not as much as on a full forward rotation.

So KKW TKD does not use reverse rotation then? Not so unusual among Korean martial arts.

Yes, puunui, that's exactly what I mean. Thanks.

 

[Dirty Dog]

The stances on palgwe 1 are either front or back,the first move is front stance inside block, to front stance middle punch.
I do not understand the half facing movement,although it could be that I learned from a mu duk kwan practicioner and I use GM Richard Chuns book as a reference for palgwe's.
I have never heard of a half facing position in KKW style either.If you wanted a half facing postion with an inside block I would say it needed be done in a back stance.

I think you might be a little confused. The first move of Palgwe 1 is a front stance, low block, to a front stance inside middle block. That's how I learned it (we're a Moo Duk Kwan school from the lineage of GM Bobby Kim) and that's also how it's show in GM Chuns book (at least in the one I have).

We are taught to have the shoulders square above the hips.

 

[leadleg]

I think dancingalone means your shoulder position on the block. Are your shoulders square or angled when doing the block? I was taught that your shoulders are angled, not square like on a punch.

I have been taught to square the shoulders in a front stance,blocking or punching.
Is there some leeway with the palgwe's, I never heard from my instructors or explanations out of the book regarding that.
There is surley no leeway in the KKW poomse for not bringing an inside block to the middle of your torso,or in front of your shoulder,on a fornt stance,again that I know of.
In tageuk 4 you have a back stance inside block that angles you sideways,end of the first line.

 

[leadleg]

I think you might be a little confused. The first move of Palgwe 1 is a front stance, low block, to a front stance inside middle block. That's how I learned it (we're a Moo Duk Kwan school from the lineage of GM Bobby Kim) and that's also how it's show in GM Chuns book (at least in the one I have).

We are taught to have the shoulders square above the hips.

Ha Ha`yes you are quite correct.

 

[leadleg]

In Shotokan, the idea is just to set yourself up for a full waist turn on the second move and the reverse rotation on the first block gives you some power, albeit not as much as on a full forward rotation.

So KKW TKD does not use reverse rotation then? Not so unusual among Korean martial arts.

Yes, puunui, that's exactly what I mean. Thanks.

There are some reverse or partial reverse rotations within some of the yudanja poomse.
I would even say taguek 7 when you palm block across you body from a tiger stance you rotate past center swinging back with the back fist may qualify as reverse rotation, but maybe more of a pendulum.

 

[puunui]

In Shotokan, the idea is just to set yourself up for a full waist turn on the second move and the reverse rotation on the first block gives you some power, albeit not as much as on a full forward rotation.

I was taught that your shoulders should be angled (how much angle is a matter of debate, and "opinion"), because like you said, if your shoulders are squared on the block, and you follow with say a reverse punch, then the punch will be all arm, with no body behind it. But if you angle your shoulders on the block, then there is some room to put some hip and body into the following punch.

 

[puunui]

I have been taught to square the shoulders in a front stance,blocking or punching.

That might be a kwan difference, I don't know, because so many practitioners out there do it that way, squared shoulders vs. angled shoulders. The WTF dartfish DVD shows it with square shoulders, while the Kukkiwon DVDs and older tapes show it with angled shoulders. That sort of thing.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I think dancingalone means your shoulder position on the block. Are your shoulders square or angled when doing the block? I was taught that your shoulders are angled, not square like on a punch.

Back stance (or fighting stance) the hips and shoulders are angled to the side, rear foot in line with front foot. Front foot facing straight ahead, rear leg faces away 90 degrees. Weight is probably about 80% on the rear leg. Whereas Front stance, hips and shoulders are facing the front and the legs are shoulder width apart, we get white and yellow belts to kick out their rear heel which pulls the stance front on. Palgwe 1 has front stances on the first bar. This clip looks the most similar to the way we do it

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I was taught that your shoulders should be angled (how much angle is a matter of debate, and "opinion"), because like you said, if your shoulders are squared on the block, and you follow with say a reverse punch, then the punch will be all arm, with no body behind it. But if you angle your shoulders on the block, then there is some room to put some hip and body into the following punch.

I find most of the time (not always) the block is in back stance and then if followed by a reverse punch the stance shifts to a front stance so the hips and shoulders face front on. An example of this would be in palgwe 7 where you go outside block in a back stance and then shift into a front stance for the reverse punch and upper cover block. It can be seen in this example at the 11 second mark

 

[leadleg]

In Shotokan, the idea is just to set yourself up for a full waist turn on the second move and the reverse rotation on the first block gives you some power, albeit not as much as on a full forward rotation.

So KKW TKD does not use reverse rotation then? Not so unusual among Korean martial arts.

Yes, puunui, that's exactly what I mean. Thanks.

Somehow I missed this, poomse as they are, do not cover the entire range of KKW techniques, but still even with the stepping, there is movement from the hips. It is the trunk where the power comes from according to KKW, all punches and blocks derive their power from rotation,but it may not be as obvious as angling the shoulders.

 

[puunui]

So KKW TKD does not use reverse rotation then? Not so unusual among Korean martial arts.

What is reverse rotation? For example, if you left foot is forward and you block or strike with the right hand?

 

[dancingalone]

What is reverse rotation? For example, if you left foot is forward and you block or strike with the right hand?

It's simply cocking your hips back in preparation for a countering movement. In Shotokan kihon( such a left front stance/left down block, right front stance, right lunge punch), the first block is done with the hips cocked backed and the torso half-side facing (hanmi). This is in contrast to the way it is done in most KMA (say, Tang Soo Do) where the hips/torso/shoulders all face directly forward on both the block and counter.

The reverse hip movement affords some power from popping of the left hip forward as the right hip draws back.

 

[dancingalone]

Somehow I missed this, poomse as they are, do not cover the entire range of KKW techniques, but still even with the stepping, there is movement from the hips. It is the trunk where the power comes from according to KKW, all punches and blocks derive their power from rotation,but it may not be as obvious as angling the shoulders.

But do you use reverse rotation in the way I describe just above?