A police takedown.

[drop bear]

So we discount the many examples of law enforcement successfully using the arm bar as anecdotal....? Why are the anecdotal examples of this takedown better than the ones for the arm bar?

If the arm bar is done correctly, it puts you behind the guy, with his head down.... If you go for this the right way, if the guy is able to pull out of it, you can easily transition into this takedown or another similar type takedown. You would only be in a bad position, if you freeze in place when things go sideways... but thats true for any technique.

The point of anecdotal evidence is precisely that they can be dismissed by other anecdotal evidence. And that is why it is so unreliable.

If he pulls out he is facing you. Which is bad from a you have to fight the guy to the ground perspective.

 

[wab25]

The point of anecdotal evidence is precisely that they can be dismissed by other anecdotal evidence. And that is why it is so unreliable.

If he pulls out he is facing you. Which is bad from a you have to fight the guy to the ground perspective.

I agree... if you do the technique wrong, and the guy pulls out, you are in danger. In the shown take down, if you miss tapping the guys elbow up, you run face first into it. If you don't get your head firmly against his back as you wrap his waist, he throws an elbow to your head, with your hands down. If you do either technique wrong, you put yourself in danger.

 

[Jared Traveler]

Can someone explain why this is an either or thing? Either I can learn and use the arm bar or I can learn the takedown...

Why not learn both? Both have been successfully used. The situation will be different each time, so use the tool needed for that situation.

I personally don't like the format of the video in the OP. Guy wants to show his takedown and how it works for police work... great, lets see it. But he starts off by doing a bad version of a different technique, to prove that it does not work. Well, of course it does not work, when you do it wrong... and when the point is to show that it doesn't work.... Just show the technique that you want to show.

That's exactly right.

 

[Jared Traveler]

Yeah. It just doesn't really work if someone is fighting back. Which is an issue.

I saw police use it effectively. But people are afraid that if it doesn't work they will get shot maced or tazed. So suprise. A whole bunch of stuff works in that scenario.

Remove that threat and the success rate plummets dramatically.

There some truth in what you are saying, but it's only a small part of the picture. People don't just not commit a lethal force assault because they are afraid of being shot or tased. There are many levels of resistance and many reasons people resist.

Not everyone is interested in hurting an officer, but that doesn't mean they will not resist at some level. When they will not follow verbal commands, there needs to be ways to place these people in handcuffs. Ways that are safe for the officer and the suspect. The straight armbar takedown is one process of doing that, that has a huge success rate.

A success rate for keeping the officer and the suspect safe most of the time. If safety was the officers highest priority, he would just use a drawn handgun and distance to gain all compliance. But it doesn't work that way.

 

[Holmejr]

When a cop says that a particular technique has works for them on the street many times. What am I going to say? Oh no it didn’t? Seems silly.

Anyway, I think adaptability is key here. When a techniques works as planned, it’s a beautiful thing and when it doesn’t we adapt. This is why we practice as close to real life as possible and with folks that don’t let you have it easily. We move from technique to counter to technique to counter. It almost infinitely variable. Everyone has their favorites and what they’re most fluid with.

In our style we think, because of weapon considerations, limb/joint destruction. An armbar is forceful enough to break the arm before hitting the ground. Of course there are many variations to the arm bar. Maybe the person resists and you move to step through clothesline or an under hook drag or kimura to take down or a step through figure four with elbow to face. Really, it’s just a whatever works type of thing. Concerning videos, most videos show very simplified/abbreviated versions of a technique. Grain of salt stuff for sure.

 

[drop bear]

There some truth in what you are saying, but it's only a small part of the picture. People don't just not commit a lethal force assault because they are afraid of being shot or tased. There are many levels of resistance and many reasons people resist.

Not everyone is interested in hurting an officer, but that doesn't mean they will not resist at some level. When they will not follow verbal commands, there needs to be ways to place these people in handcuffs. Ways that are safe for the officer and the suspect. The straight armbar takedown is one process of doing that, that has a huge success rate.

A success rate for keeping the officer and the suspect safe most of the time. If safety was the officers highest priority, he would just use a drawn handgun and distance to gain all compliance. But it doesn't work that way.

Or not a huge success rate according to cops.

Here they are trying to fix that issue with a Russian two on one.

I don't think we would find a training instance where the arm bar works. It is generally taught. Tried and then abandoned for hitting.

 

[Holmejr]

Or not a huge success rate according to cops.

Here they are trying to fix that issue with a Russian two on one.

I don't think we would find a training instance where the arm bar works. It is generally taught. Tried and then abandoned for hitting.

Arm wrap takedown. In Eskrido we call that winding. We practice it often with knife wielding students. Nice.

 

[Jared Traveler]

Or not a huge success rate according to cops.

Here they are trying to fix that issue with a Russian two on one.

I don't think we would find a training instance where the arm bar works. It is generally taught. Tried and then abandoned for hitting.

As a Sambo guy, I love the two on one variations, but only for more experienced grapplers. Because it puts your weapon that much closer to a suspect. If you aren't great a grappling, it's better to have a failed armbar attempt and maintain some distance, rather than getting tangled up and having your weapon grabbed.

Incidentally I have never hand anyone injured even slightly with a straight armbar takedown, and I have done them pretty dynamically.

 

[Jared Traveler]

Drop bear, great video to work with for discussion:

I think we could discect this and learn a few things, maybe clear a few things up. Lots of branches to this, including the fact that the video demonstrates the realistic grappling ability cadets get to in a typical academy setting. It's not a high degree of skill at all. I know because I taught them. You just don't get very many training hours with a cadet. Most of them start with zero experience fighting or wrestling.

Watching the video it was clear before hands were put on the suspect that the straight arm bar wasn't going to work. Any experienced grappler could see that, of course cadets generally aren't experienced grapplers. So it was attempted anyways.

The straight armbar works best when the officer archives the "escort position" prior to resistance. This didn't happen in the video. So it was a bad technique to try in this case. This is why all conflict is problem solving. The armbar is not THE SOLUTION, far from it!!! Like everything it is A WAY of putting someone into cuffs that doesn't comply verbally.

Other options include the grappling techniques you have suggested. Those certainly have their place, and would have been AN OPTION in this case, but not THE WAY to do it. The officer might have chose to use tools like the TASER or spray, if they weren't confident in essentially wrestling with a suspect. Either because of the officers low skill level at wrestling, or maybe the fact they were alone and didn't have a partner.

Wrestling with a suspect with a gun on your hip, is a highly dangerous activity. I have done it multiple, multiple times. It takes a very different mindset, focus, awareness and skill than you use in the gym. It is not something to be entered into lightly as an inexperienced officer or novice grappler. When you have more officers present, you can take higher risks by wrestling. Because if you begin to be dominated by a better wrestler, you have some or multiple people to help you.

But casually going for a takedown and closing with a suspect is highly dangerous, and the techniques presented by Iron Mike work(I have used them) but they are not the missing link to keeping suspects and officers safe. In fact it could easily create a situation where the suspect is shot and killed, when he otherwise would not have been.

 

[drop bear]

Drop bear, great video to work with for discussion:

I think we could discect this and learn a few things, maybe clear a few things up. Lots of branches to this, including the fact that the video demonstrates the realistic grappling ability cadets get to in a typical academy setting. It's not a high degree of skill at all. I know because I taught them. You just don't get very many training hours with a cadet. Most of them start with zero experience fighting or wrestling.

Watching the video it was clear before hands were put on the suspect that the straight arm bar wasn't going to work. Any experienced grappler could see that, of course cadets generally aren't experienced grapplers. So it was attempted anyways.

The straight armbar works best when the officer archives the "escort position" prior to resistance. This didn't happen in the video. So it was a bad technique to try in this case. This is why all conflict is problem solving. The armbar is not THE SOLUTION, far from it!!! Like everything it is A WAY of putting someone into cuffs that doesn't comply verbally.

Other options include the grappling techniques you have suggested. Those certainly have their place, and would have been AN OPTION in this case, but not THE WAY to do it. The officer might have chose to use tools like the TASER or spray, if they weren't confident in essentially wrestling with a suspect. Either because of the officers low skill level at wrestling, or maybe the fact they were alone and didn't have a partner.

Wrestling with a suspect with a gun on your hip, is a highly dangerous activity. I have done it multiple, multiple times. It takes a very different mindset, focus, awareness and skill than you use in the gym. It is not something to be entered into lightly as an inexperienced officer or novice grappler. When you have more officers present, you can take higher risks by wrestling. Because if you begin to be dominated by a better wrestler, you have some or multiple people to help you.

But casually going for a takedown and closing with a suspect is highly dangerous, and the techniques presented by Iron Mike work(I have used them) but they are not the missing link to keeping suspects and officers safe. In fact it could easily create a situation where the suspect is shot and killed, when he otherwise would not have been.

The escort position is sort of kind of stupid. Yes you can just walk over and take it if someone let's you. But if that is the main focus of your escort position entry. Then you are not teaching anything. Which is essentially DT 101.

Which from my experience of DT tended to be cause a distraction. Sneak up behind the guy and arm bar. Which never worked. Because for some reason the bad guy was always aware of you.

Basically there is almost always a better option than that armbar.

The gun issue is a series of cop outs. It frames the argument like this.

Attempt crappy arm bar to keep gun safe. Fail because crappy arm bar is crappy. Escalate to belting the guy because apparently all peaceful options have been tried. If that fails Escalate to tools. Because that suspect that can withstand the all powerful arm bar or gooseneck must have super human powers or something. Pull gun out.

Now I challenge you to find a situation where a cop who was winning a fight has had his gun grabbed. Because from what I have seen the biggest risk is when the guy is loosing.

Which will happen if you are relying on that arm bar because they spin out of it and face you.

 

[Jared Traveler]

The escort position is sort of kind of stupid. Yes you can just walk over and take it if someone let's you. But if that is the main focus of your escort position entry. Then you are not teaching anything. Which is essentially DT 101.

Which from my experience of DT tended to be cause a distraction. Sneak up behind the guy and arm bar. Which never worked. Because for some reason the bad guy was always aware of you.

Basically there is almost always a better option than that armbar.

The gun issue is a series of cop outs. It frames the argument like this.

Attempt crappy arm bar to keep gun safe. Fail because crappy arm bar is crappy. Escalate to belting the guy because apparently all peaceful options have been tried. If that fails Escalate to tools. Because that suspect that can withstand the all powerful arm bar or gooseneck must have super human powers or something. Pull gun out.

Now I challenge you to find a situation where a cop who was winning a fight has had his gun grabbed. Because from what I have seen the biggest risk is when the guy is loosing.

Which will happen if you are relying on that arm bar because they spin out of it and face you.

I'm sorry, but you don't understand law enforcements job. The escort position isn't stupid, and at no point are you trying to sneak up on anyone. You are not trying to sneak up and arm bar anyone. Again, you lack an understanding on how and when this is used.

I understand why in your mind this is useless and doesn't work. That's because you don't understand it's utility in context of the job.

Challenge accepted: I have had an attempt on my weapon when I was dominating and mounted on a suspect. You don't understand grappling in the context of law enforcement.

 

[drop bear]

I'm sorry, but you don't understand law enforcements job. The escort position isn't stupid, and at no point are you trying to sneak up on anyone. You are not trying to sneak up and arm bar anyone. Again, you lack an understanding on how and when this is used.

I understand why in your mind this is useless and doesn't work. That's because you don't understand it's utility in context of the job.

Challenge accepted: I have had an attempt on my weapon when I was dominating and mounted on a suspect. You don't understand grappling in the context of law enforcement.

This is the context of the job.

Crappy arm bar fails turns in to a mess. Dogpile bang the guys head in to the deck until he gives up.

Now this is literally a copy of the training.

 

[drop bear]

Challenge accepted: I have had an attempt on my weapon when I was dominating and mounted on a suspect. You don't understand grappling in the context of law enforcement.

So you were in Mount and they tried to pull your gun out. Because I would be suprised if that was even possible.

 

[Jared Traveler]

This is the context of the job.

Crappy arm bar fails turns in to a mess. Dogpile bang the guys head in to the deck until he gives up.

Now this is literally a copy of the training.

What's your point? If you want to argue that cops need better training on what to do if the straight armbar fails, I can agree with that. Which in fact I did a great job at doing when I was teaching cops. If you want to find videos that demonstrate your average cop isn't a skilled grappler, those videos exist all over the net. Because they generally are not and will not be expert grapplers.

 

[Jared Traveler]

So you were in Mount and they tried to pull your gun out. Because I would be suprised if that was even possible.

That's exactly what happened. And actually the level 3 retention holsters I was wearing makes a disarm from that angle a very realistic possibility.

In fact, come to think of it, I had someone disarm me while I was mounted on them in training. It was a blue plastic gun. I had to wrestle to get it back once it was in his hands.

 

[drop bear]

What's your point? If you want to argue that cops need better training on what to do if the straight armbar fails, I can agree with that. Which in fact I did a great job at doing when I was teaching cops. If you want to find videos that demonstrate your average cop isn't a skilled grappler, those videos exist all over the net. Because they generally are not and will not be expert grapplers.

The arm bar takedown is a fundamental flaw of police training. But it is easy to teach and looks good in demoes. And if instructors argue that it works enough times. Mabye enough people will believe them. Which saves them doing any real training on the subject.

Police are not expert grapplers because of this fundamental flaw of police training. What it does is it forces police to punch people in the head because that arm bar probably won't work. That arm bar is a joke. Nobody respects it. Icey Mike's take on that arm bar is an accurate one.

When police do training from someone who vaguely knows how to grapple they become safer and better at their job. And we can see this with the adopt a cop program. This is when we remove people from police context training and put them in training that just works better.

If you are dealing with a person who can't really grapple and you have a limited time to spend trying to get them to grapple because they actually might have to do it. You don't waste your time on arm bar takedowns.

You spend your time on high percentage moves that are as safe as you can mechanically get.

Eg. Back takes.

Of course we are not even talking about some hinky bjj stuff here where we expect cops to be pulling off double leg over arm bars.(which they do. And there is another argument for that)

Back takes keep you on your feet. Keeps your belt kit safe. Keeps you safe from striking, lets you use the guy as a shield if their friends roll up and let's you let go and run away if you really have to. It is the definition of context if you understand how the dynamics of getting a belligerent person from a position that is uncontrolled to controlled in an uncertain street environment.

Arm bar takedowns on the other hand are not good in context. And they are not very reliable.

 

[Jared Traveler]

So you were in Mount and they tried to pull your gun out. Because I would be suprised if that was even possible.

In fact, you got me remembering now. 20 years ago when I was acting as the "bad guy" during police defensive tactics training, before I was an instructor, I sat on the ground and made the cadets try to take me into custody.

22 cadets came out two at a time for the call. I laid on bottom and while they were both on top of me, knee striking me and trying to turn me over into a handcuffing position, I disarmed at least half of them. Sometimes stripping both officers of their weapon and throwing them away, before they realized they were gone and or communicated it to their partner.

Taking a weapon in a grappling situation is not difficult, especially if you understand how the holster works. I probably disarmed 15 of the cadets that night.

 

[drop bear]

That's exactly what happened. And actually the level 3 retention holsters I was wearing makes a disarm from that angle a very realistic possibility.

In fact, come to think of it, I had someone disarm me while I was mounted on them in training. It was a blue plastic gun. I had to wrestle to get it back once it was in his hands.

In fact, you got me remembering now. 20 years ago when I was acting as the "bad guy" during police defensive tactics training, before I was an instructor, I sat on the ground and made the cadets try to take me into custody.

22 cadets came out two at a time for the call. I laid on bottom and while they were both on top of me, knee striking me and trying to turn me over into a handcuffing position, I disarmed at least half of them. Sometimes stripping both officers of their weapon and throwing them away, before they realized they were gone and or communicated it to their partner.

Taking a weapon in a grappling situation is not difficult, especially if you understand how the holster works. I probably disarmed 15 of the cadets that night.

And the whole room clapped?

 

[Jared Traveler]

And the whole room clapped?

You understand I brought that up because you were contemplating if this was a realistic possibility?

 

[Jared Traveler]

The arm bar takedown is a fundamental flaw of police training. But it is easy to teach and looks good in demoes. And if instructors argue that it works enough times. Mabye enough people will believe them. Which saves them doing any real training on the subject.

Police are not expert grapplers because of this fundamental flaw of police training. What it does is it forces police to punch people in the head because that arm bar probably won't work. That arm bar is a joke. Nobody respects it. Icey Mike's take on that arm bar is an accurate one.

When police do training from someone who vaguely knows how to grapple they become safer and better at their job. And we can see this with the adopt a cop program. This is when we remove people from police context training and put them in training that just works better.

If you are dealing with a person who can't really grapple and you have a limited time to spend trying to get them to grapple because they actually might have to do it. You don't waste your time on arm bar takedowns.

You spend your time on high percentage moves that are as safe as you can mechanically get.

Eg. Back takes.

Of course we are not even talking about some hinky bjj stuff here where we expect cops to be pulling off double leg over arm bars.(which they do. And there is another argument for that)

Back takes keep you on your feet. Keeps your belt kit safe. Keeps you safe from striking, lets you use the guy as a shield if their friends roll up and let's you let go and run away if you really have to. It is the definition of context if you understand how the dynamics of getting a belligerent person from a position that is uncontrolled to controlled in an uncertain street environment.

Arm bar takedowns on the other hand are not good in context. And they are not very reliable.

I understand the value of getting behind people, it has literally saved my life. Ultimately it's okay if you think the straight armbar has no value. There was a time when I would have agreed with you. I also think it's good to question things like this. It's healthy, assuming the right people get to decide yes or no on these matters. Many aspects of your think on this is accurate. I can't however not understand it's value after using it to great effect, without injuring anyone so many times.