A nice little question.....

[Nightingale]

I don't think religion is the problem... I think people are the problem, and some people see religion, God, and religious texts as weapons they can use in their own misguided crusades.

Religion is not inherently good or inherently evil. It simply exists. For example, I've seen Christianity do a whole lot of good for some people (reforming felons, for example), and a whole lot of bad (a homosexual student at my school who killed himself because his parents told him he was evil and that they were good Christians and could never accept him as gay).

Religion is something that can be a very positive thing, if its used to foster understanding rather than intolerance, and acceptance rather than judgement. When people come up to my gay friends and tell them "The Bible says you're going to Hell!" (happens more often than you think), we just look at them and ask "Have you actually read it?" More often than not, the answer is "no." They're parroting what they've heard from parents and preachers, and they've memorized a few quotes to keep in their arsenal. The Bible, overall, is a message of peace and tolerance. "Judge not, lest ye be judged." "Love thy neighbor as yourself." "Whatever you do to the least of my brothers..." etc... (and I'm aware that I'm editing here, but its impossible to post the entire text of the Bible here. LOL)

The problem with books like the Bible, Torah, and Qu'oran is that they are so long, that you can make them say whatever you want them to say based on selective editing. You can take a bible quote, and I can guarantee that somewhere, you can find something in the bible that directly contradicts the original quote. For example... "Judge not, lest ye be judged..." and "An eye for an eye." the latter quote seems like judgement to me...? If someone's judging you, its "Judge not..." but if you want to judge someone who's wronged you, its "an eye for an eye" rather than "turn the other cheek." People use the little quotes instead of looking at the big picture, because the little quotes support their actions, while the big picture is a resounding "Don't Do That!" With religious texts, you have to look at the overall picture, not just the little snippets.

Many of the people who are fanatics don't actually follow the religion's overall message of peace and tolerance. Ten bucks says Bin Laden isn't on his knees toward Mecca five times a day.

If you want to share your religion, do so first by living it, because leading by example is the best way.

Respectfully,

-N-

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by nightingale8472
....I don't think religion is the problem... I think people are the problem, ...

Exactly.

.....a homosexual student at my school who killed himself because his parents told him he was evil and that they were good Christians and could never accept him as gay....

How did the family feel about the suicide?

..... The Bible, overall, is a message of peace and tolerance. "Judge not, lest ye be judged." "Love thy neighbor as yourself." "Whatever you do to the least of my brothers..." etc... .....

That is true for the most part of the New Testament, as far as I am aware of.

The problem with books like the Bible, Torah, and Qu'oran is that they are so long, that you can make them say whatever you want them to say based on selective editing.

As you mentioned, the people are the problem. This reminded me of corporations distorting statistics, attorneys twisting the facts, lobbyists using partial data, all to further their respective interests.

Ten bucks says Bin Laden isn't on his knees toward Mecca five times a day.

lol No bet.

If you want to share your religion, do so first by living it, because leading by example is the best way.

Preach by example.

 

[Nightingale]

Originally posted by KennethKu
Exactly.


How did the family feel about the suicide?

I went to the funeral... they said things like "If he'd only come back to the Lord, this tragedy would have never happened." I walked out halfway through, along with about two dozen other people. It was sickening.

 

[chufeng]

Pardon my insensitive comment, but those folks got "godfu**ed"

That's what happens when dogma and righteousness supercedes the original intent of the Word.

There are numbers of examples where Christ walked among the masses (usually in the seedier part of town) and gathered crowds who wanted to hear a message...tolerance, not judging (that is someone else's job)and agape (unconditional love) for your fellow man seemed to be the underlying message...

Other than his outburst at the temple (money-changers and vendors) he reserved most of his sharp words for those who somehow believed they were better than others (the rabbis and those who proclaimed loudly and with theater their adoration for the Almighty)...

Too many pseudoChristians (those who say one thing, but do another OR are religiously proud and condescending) have really spoiled the intent of the founder of Christ's church...too many men have interjected their own agendas...very unfortunate...

I am content to read, contemplate, meditate and have my communion in private...I am content to live a life, albeit imperfect, that I won't be ashamed of when under review...and I am aware that by my example and by my words, people around me may be changed (or they may judge me)...

I am sorry a young man had to die at his own hand because of pseudoChristian dogma...I am even more sorry that the parents still don't get it...maybe one day.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by nightingale8472
I went to the funeral... they said things like "If he'd only come back to the Lord, this tragedy would have never happened." I walked out halfway through, along with about two dozen other people. It was sickening.

For what's worth, he is with the Lord now. "In the arms of the angels, may he find some peace"

 

[KennethKu]

Very well said, Mr Hachey.

 

[chufeng]

Mr. Ku,

How is it that you've decided to call me Mr. Hachey?

My father was looked very highly upon by just about everyone who came to know him...
He was a boxing coach and raised many AAU and Golden Gloves champions (two of them were my brothers)...When a boxing club member (remember we aren't talking about a knitting group, here) would get arrested for something, or another, they would apologize to my father for embarrassing him...
He also was a man of high morals who taught what was right was right...what was wrong, was wrong...no relativism. Conservative...oh yeah. (I was much more liberal as a teenager...now I've learned that relativism has its limits in an imperfect world...someone has to draw the line somewhere).


I am proud of my family name...
I am proud to be my father's son...

But, because I sometimes get into arguments that are less than pretty...I prefer my "thumb" name for those encounters, as they are directly related to martial training and discipline.

Chufeng is the name my teacher gave me, sort of by default (it could have been "Loud-Mouth Lime"), when he accepted me as a "thumb." I am as proud of that name as my family name.

Perhaps you've chosen to use my family name because this thread is outside of the "normal" pervue of martial arts, as most folks see it...but, as I've said on numerous occasions, I can't separate my martial training from any other aspect of my life...it is who I am.

Good day and good training,
Mr. Hachey aka chufeng



:asian:

 

[KennethKu]

lol Ok Chufeng. (Please call me Ken or Kenneth.) I tend to address people of my senior, either in age or in experience or both, properly. It would be better to be asked to address someone informally then to be told, " Its Mr. so and so, or Ms so and so, to you." When you do not know for a fact if someone is superior to you in seniority or not, it is always better to assume so at first.

On the other hand, in situations where I don't particularly care to be friendly to the people I am dealing with (with good reason), I don't care to be on first name basis with them neither. Of course, that is not the case here.

 

[KennethKu]

Chufeng,

Forgive me for not mentioning this in the previous post. Evidently, your father was a decent and honorable man. I would say he was the kind of man, to whom, honor is not an empty word.

 

[yilisifu]

I must confess that I barely knew Chufeng's Father. But if his son is any indication of the kind of man he was, he was certainly a very special individual.

 

[Michael Billings]

Just to add a little to the discussion - of the 3 "forbidden" topics, SEX, RELIGION, & POLITICS - this has been a very good thread on the religion topic.

My experience has been that religion provides a framework from in which to form ideals, social norms, and values. Cultures stand or fall defending these mores. Great evil and great good have both been spawned in religion's name. I prefer not to address religion as "good" or "bad", but rather are the values taught to the adherents practical, of value, and close to consistent with mine. I tend to be very tolerant of others ... until they step in my puddle and muddy it up. Then it is an issue between me and them, not the religious paradigm from which the come.

On the other hand is the notion of spirituality. This includes many recognized religions, but surpasses the limited definition of an "Organized Religion." I do not want to define spirituality, but rather bring it into the context of the Martial Arts. Few arts exclude spiritual growth as part of the curriculum taught, not necessarily verbally, but rather in the values shared and expected. I don't care if it is the "good sportsmanship" of high school or college wrestling, or golden glove boxing, or the more traditional Japanese Shintoist, how about Native American's spirituallity, the Christian, Judeo-Christian, Buddist, Taoist, Paganist, followers of Islam, etc. Values are taught and shared by teachers, regardless of intent.

This obviously can be good or bad contingent on the instructor. In my opinion, of paramount importance is the instructor's awareness of the environment he/she is creating by their own actions and those of the student's in the school.

Just more grist for the mill,
Oss,
-Michael

 

[Kroy]

Originally posted by Master of Blades
Ahhhh, this place is dying and as usual your friendly MOB is here to save it.

Anyways......These days people tend to blame a lot of things on Religeon.......for example wars, etc claiming that Religeon is the cause of most bad things. So a short simple question......

Would life be better IYO without Religeon?

No bashing, just a Yes or no answer with a little explanation and how you feel the world would be.

:asian:

No.

 

[Humble artist]

"Would life be better IYO without Religeon? "

Yes.

 

[Kroy]

Originally posted by Nightingale
I don't think religion is the problem... I think people are the problem, and some people see religion, God, and religious texts as weapons they can use in their own misguided crusades.

Religion is not inherently good or inherently evil. It simply exists. For example, I've seen Christianity do a whole lot of good for some people (reforming felons, for example), and a whole lot of bad (a homosexual student at my school who killed himself because his parents told him he was evil and that they were good Christians and could never accept him as gay).

Religion is something that can be a very positive thing, if its used to foster understanding rather than intolerance, and acceptance rather than judgement. When people come up to my gay friends and tell them "The Bible says you're going to Hell!" (happens more often than you think), we just look at them and ask "Have you actually read it?" More often than not, the answer is "no." They're parroting what they've heard from parents and preachers, and they've memorized a few quotes to keep in their arsenal. The Bible, overall, is a message of peace and tolerance. "Judge not, lest ye be judged." "Love thy neighbor as yourself." "Whatever you do to the least of my brothers..." etc... (and I'm aware that I'm editing here, but its impossible to post the entire text of the Bible here. LOL)

The problem with books like the Bible, Torah, and Qu'oran is that they are so long, that you can make them say whatever you want them to say based on selective editing. You can take a bible quote, and I can guarantee that somewhere, you can find something in the bible that directly contradicts the original quote. For example... "Judge not, lest ye be judged..." and "An eye for an eye." the latter quote seems like judgement to me...? If someone's judging you, its "Judge not..." but if you want to judge someone who's wronged you, its "an eye for an eye" rather than "turn the other cheek." People use the little quotes instead of looking at the big picture, because the little quotes support their actions, while the big picture is a resounding "Don't Do That!" With religious texts, you have to look at the overall picture, not just the little snippets.

Many of the people who are fanatics don't actually follow the religion's overall message of peace and tolerance. Ten bucks says Bin Laden isn't on his knees toward Mecca five times a day.

If you want to share your religion, do so first by living it, because leading by example is the best way.

Respectfully,

-N-

Nicely said!

 

[Cliarlaoch]

I don't think the human race can exist without religious, or at least spiritual, beliefs. We're hardwired to believe in something, even if it is only our own moral perspective. Without that basis, we have no standards with which to judge the outside world, or to even put the rest of the world in context. It's called prejudice or bias in psychology. We all have our own way of seeing the world. It's the only way our brains can deal with the sensory overload of the real world. We process what are brain thinks is necessary for us to understand what's going on. Part of that process of choosing what is necessary comes from our basic moral beliefs... the inevitable "this is good" and "this is bad" beliefs that every sane human being has. Belief, faith, all these things, are inherently necessary because they give us a way of viewing the world without going nuts.

Another side to the argument: taking out faith (I say faith, not religion, here) from the human experience removes so much of what makes humanity what it is. It is our ability to believe in something greater than ourselves, no matter what that might be, that allows us to do so much of the wonderful things that humanity has done. Faith is the belief in something greater than oneself. Religion is the structured format of that, i.e. a belief in a god or gods/godesses. It may or may not have a moral structure. Faith in a system that lacks moral standards, i.e. guys like Hitler, who honestly believed slaughtering Jews was justifiable, is not real faith. It's a perversion of that faith, because it lacks the morality that underlies all faiths, a belief in basic definitions of good and evil. You start doing evil, you're violating the very principle of what it means to be moral. Thus you're immoral. You lack morality. Morality in many ways comes from faith in some basic set of principles. It is necessary to have morality, and faith, to establish those principles.

Having said that, I don't think, as I look back, that I'm really all that big on religion, per se. I believe in faith. I myself am Christian. But I don't go to Church. Not now, anyway. Why do I need to go to Church, if I can develop a set of principles on my own? To connect to the World Spirit/God/etc? No, I can do that on my own. If I find a religion that suits me, and that I feel connects me more closely to God, than I'll go. But if not, I won't. Religion can be used as a blinder if it isn't based inherently on true faith in a set of moral codes, a set of beliefs, whether handed down by God or not. Let me clarify here that morality does not mean that you define one set of people as evil for being wrong. Misguided, maybe. Evil? No. Someone else disagreeing with you doesn't give you the right to murder them. That's not faith, because to legitimize death based on religion would contradict the basic morality of your own faith, since most belief and moral systems dictate that human life is not to be taken except in extreme cases like Self-Defense. It violates faith to kill, a la Bin Laden, or Hitler. Maybe I'm not making sense here... I haven't had my coffee this morning, I admit, so I could be off my rocker, and I know I've just argued for a pretty absolutist point of view (i.e. faith in a system may exclude others), but that's the way human beings operate. However, the basic principle of most faith structures is the Golden Rule: Do no harm. Given that, and given that that rule is the basis of my own Christianity, I do think that faith's a good thing. Religion, I'm not so sure about, unless it facilitates that faith. If it's just dogma, or a structure that reinforces the negative situation that many people find themselves in (like Marx said it was), or if it perpetuates Chufeng's "pseudo-Christian" ideologies that say anyone who's different needs to be purged, then it violates basic faith, and needs to be stripped away.

Looking back, I'm being a bit of a humanist (i.e., don't hurt people, respect humanity, etc.), but hey, that's okay. That's a faith in and of itself, as well.

Please don't bash me too hard... I've not had enough sleep. Hope I made myself somewhat clear! I don't even know if I did. This was pretty much stream-of-consciousness, anyway!

Chris

 

[OULobo]

To the question, I think the answer is no. This isn't because I am a religious person, it is because I think that as with many things only the bad occurances are highlighted. The first thing to remember is that the belief system of many religions is based on dealing with the traumas of everyday life and to instill a set of morals. I know that brings up many issues of who's morals or what morals are acceptable, but most of the base tenants of most organized religions are designed to allow people to interact safely and with tolerance. The second thing to bring up is that despite the actions of fringe groups and fanatics, there are the actions of religious based charities and non-profit organizations. Ask a poverty stricken village in South America if religion is bad when they just got a home or hospital built by a group of missionaries. Ask a homeless man if religion is bad when he just got his only meal from a local church's soup kitchen. Ask battered wife and her abused child if religion is bad after they find sanctuary in a religious shelter house. Ask the injured WWII vet if religion is bad when he remembers the compassion and aid given to him and the German alike by the monestaries and convents of Europe. I am using the Christian faith as examples because that is what I know of best, but I'm sure other religions have good examples too. For every abusive priest there are a thousand volunteers that help the community. For every swindled dollar there is a thousand spent on programs that help all people not just christians. I do think that the higher up you get in the heirarchy of organization the more the value of the religion declines, but that is the nature of all affairs. The value of religion is in its compassion and community, not its laws and rules.

 

[ammotree]

"would the world be better iyo without religion"



Ye.

 

[someguy]

This may have been mentioned already but consider this if it hasn't. Good and evil comes from religion.
This can mean a couple of things. If we saw this world with out religion we might not like it but the inhabitants might like it.
There could be an emphasis on this life and the greatest good for the greatest number. Or self could be the most important. If you are only concerned about here and now wouldn't you become very selfish? Then from there you might want to either live as well as you can or try to obtain immortality.
I dunno about much of this though its all a shot in the dark by a blind person towards an invisible target.
So my guess is I dunno but I think religion is good.

 

[Cruentus]

Would life be better IYO without Religeon?

No. I think "Religion" has done more good then harm.

 

[loki09789]

No, the world would not be better off if there were no religion. Before there were political bodies to really organize people religious organizations did this. Before there were social services programs, religious inspiration/promotion of 'hospitallity' (a 'golden rule' parable and mythical story in any culture) or charity to the lowly or in need. Before science gave answers to all the 'what is it all about?" questions, religion was the link that kept people together for mutual support and cooperation.

Anytime people start making decisions as leaders of an organized, controlling body (religious or political - but you can't really separate the two IMO) based on personal power, greed, .... they individually screw up the mix. They corrupt the goals and purposes for the personal gain and selfish goals. I don't know if we should really be blaming religion as much as humans in any organization who act selfishly.