A nice little question.....

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Master of Blades

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Ahhhh, this place is dying and as usual your friendly MOB is here to save it.

Anyways......These days people tend to blame a lot of things on Religeon.......for example wars, etc claiming that Religeon is the cause of most bad things. So a short simple question......

Would life be better IYO without Religeon?

No bashing, just a Yes or no answer with a little explanation and how you feel the world would be.

:asian:
 
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SRyuFighter

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Yes, I feel that people would be more down to earth and would look for more practical answers to their questions. Heh sorry if this pisses anyone off.
 

Matt Stone

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Without a concept of the divine, without the reverence for that which is beyond us, we would not have art, philosophy, poetry and many other ethereal concepts which stem from our relationship with the unknown.

While "religion" has caused a lot of trouble, let's not forget that Mother Church is what pretty much held the world together, though shakily, for quite some time...

There are a lot of things that have been done in the name of religion, but don't confuse the acts done in its name for the religion itself...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:
 

michaeledward

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Many before me have called religion the 'opiate of the masses'. Organized religion has done much to enrich the powerful as well as keep the downtrodden down.

Organized religion is also a wonderful source of community and strength for its members. Indeed, many good works are done through layity of organized religion.

It seems to me that without organized religion, there would be much more uncertainty in the world. While this might be scary, it might also encourage a bit more understanding.

The certainty of having 'God' (as you understand him) on your side has, perhaps, been the cause of much of the worlds conflict. Might it not be better to introduce a little uncertainty as to which side god is on?
 
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yilisifu

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I would add that those who called religion an "opiate for the masses" included wonderful folks such as Joseph Stalin (it's his quote, I believe).

God just IS. I AM. WE, as fallible human beings, create all of our own problems; wars, diseases, famine, suffering. Then we turn and point our fingers at God and say that it's His fault.

Not so.

I agree with Yiliquan 1.
 

Touch Of Death

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Religeon is not the problem, its fundamentalism and or the idealism it hopes to acheive. Our brains are all equiped with spiritual centers. It is sort of the "make sense of it all" part of us that keeps us going in the face of despair. We can rest assure that it is not religion that starts wars it is the pursiut of land. Look at the Israeli situation. The west tried to right what they felt was a 2000 year old wrong by just starting up a new Homeland for the semitic peoples right smack dab in the middle of an Islamic region. Welcome to WWIII folks! The land will be fought for by the religious zealots that its taking spawned. Religion will help the people on both sides deal with the losses and gladly send more to die, but the taking of the land is what started it all.
Sean
 
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Master of Blades

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Originally posted by Yiliquan1
Without a concept of the divine, without the reverence for that which is beyond us, we would not have art, philosophy, poetry and many other ethereal concepts which stem from our relationship with the unknown.

While "religion" has caused a lot of trouble, let's not forget that Mother Church is what pretty much held the world together, though shakily, for quite some time...

There are a lot of things that have been done in the name of religion, but don't confuse the acts done in its name for the religion itself...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

Which leads me to my next question.......Why do so many people claim to do stuff for their Religeon.......Are you trying to say that people just blame stuff on it? If it is their belief and it says that they should do so then is it not the Religeons fault if they do so? :asian:

And SRyuFighter.....Dont worry about pissing people off.....you shouldnt be here to kiss *** :rolleyes:
 
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KenpoDragon

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This is a touchy subject Master of Blades,there was a similar discussion on another popular martial arts forum.In my opinion,(and that's all that it is,my opinion) religion is not the real problem.The real problem is what people do in the name of God,or whichever religious figure you worship.Through the span of time people have gone to war because they believe they are doing God's work.Cleansing the Earth of the infidels,and sinners,and non believers,so on and so on.Ultimately they are doing what they "believe" is God's work,that doesn't mean it is.I can tell you that in my personal experience religion (God) has kept me from my own personal wars.In that I mean as martial artists we all know what we are capable of,but what stops us from using it when ever we get a little angry,our morals.I know personally that religion has instilled certain morals in me that have helped me out in times of need.In that I do not mean that martial arts does not instill morals in it's practitioners,just that sometimes people get the idea of good morals from somewhere else.So I personally believe that without certain religions people wouldn't care about anything but themselves.Put it this way if I didn't think that there would be consequences (spiritual or otherwise) for my actions, then what would keep me from just going out in the world and taking whatever I wanted.Sometimes the fear of God,keeps people in check,simply because they believe someone is always watching.As I said earlier,just my opinion.

With honor and respect,
Mr.Tanaka :asian:
 

Matt Stone

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Originally posted by Master of Blades
Which leads me to my next question.......Why do so many people claim to do stuff for their Religeon.......Are you trying to say that people just blame stuff on it? If it is their belief and it says that they should do so then is it not the Religeons fault if they do so? :asian:

What can a religion do to you? It is a non-living entity; it exists only because people come together and act on its behalf. They can either act in accordance with the tenets espoused by the religion, or not. They can also misinterpret those tenets, and act in ways that go against the actual tenets.

For example - Islam specifically prohibits waging war on women, children and the elderly. Yet, Muslim extremists under the direction of many different leaders, have killed women, children and the elderly for different reasons. They claim to act in the name of Islam, yet their actions are specifically forbidden by the religion.

For example - Christianity says "you will not kill" (though there is a debate that "kill" really means "murder" as opposed to simply taking the life of an enemy combatant for example). Yet, there were eight major undertakings sponsored by Mother Church herself to purge Jerusalem of non-Christians.

Christianity also requires fasting, very similar in context to the fasting done by Muslims during Ramadan and other specific occasions. The eating of pork is also forbidden. However, it is rare for a Christian to actually observe these tenets, interpreting other sections of the Bible to support their failure to follow God's laws.

More examples could be given, I'm sure.

The point being, the religion does not act. Only people do. Blaming the religion for the acts of its alleged followers is like blaming the gun for killing someone rather than the person firing it, or blaming the door of the barn for allowing the horse to escape.

Blame the person, not the cause for which they act.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:
 

theletch1

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Muslim extremists under the direction of many different leaders

Yet, there were eight major undertakings sponsored by Mother Church herself to purge Jerusalem of non-Christians.

Here are two examples that point directly to the next quote....
Religeon is not the problem, its fundamentalism and or the idealism it hopes to acheive

Extremism in ANY form cannot be good. There has been religion in one form or another for much longer than recorded history. A concept that runs this deep in the nether reaches of the mind must serve some purpose. I've studied a lot of different religions (just out of curiosity) and find that most of them have an underlying theme to them that, IMHO, could do the world a lot of good. It's the individuals who practice particular "religions" and believe that their way is the only way and ANY other belief system is wrong and deserving of destruction that cause the problems with religion.
 
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Posiview

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I would add that those who called religion an "opiate for the masses" included wonderful folks such as Joseph Stalin (it's his quote, I believe).

I believe it was Karl Marx.

Without religion there would be anarchy - people conform through fear of an eternaty in hell.

Andy Sheader
 
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SRyuFighter

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Originally posted by Posiview
I believe it was Karl Marx.

Without religion there would be anarchy - people conform through fear of an eternaty in hell.

Andy Sheader
I disagree. I think that was right once upon a time but not too much anymore.
 
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Master of Blades

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Originally posted by Mr.Tanaka
This is a touchy subject Master of Blades,there was a similar discussion on another popular martial arts forum.In my opinion,(and that's all that it is,my opinion) religion is not the real problem.The real problem is what people do in the name of God,or whichever religious figure you worship.Through the span of time people have gone to war because they believe they are doing God's work.Cleansing the Earth of the infidels,and sinners,and non believers,so on and so on.Ultimately they are doing what they "believe" is God's work,that doesn't mean it is.I can tell you that in my personal experience religion (God) has kept me from my own personal wars.In that I mean as martial artists we all know what we are capable of,but what stops us from using it when ever we get a little angry,our morals.I know personally that religion has instilled certain morals in me that have helped me out in times of need.In that I do not mean that martial arts does not instill morals in it's practitioners,just that sometimes people get the idea of good morals from somewhere else.So I personally believe that without certain religions people wouldn't care about anything but themselves.Put it this way if I didn't think that there would be consequences (spiritual or otherwise) for my actions, then what would keep me from just going out in the world and taking whatever I wanted.Sometimes the fear of God,keeps people in check,simply because they believe someone is always watching.As I said earlier,just my opinion.

With honor and respect,
Mr.Tanaka :asian:

:lol:.....Great points, and to be honest.....This forum needs a jump start.....and Im a 16 yr old Sceptic. Perfect for large debating sessions :rofl:
 
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lost_tortoise

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At the risk of sounding off without clarity of terms, I would have to say that religion often does more harm than good. Masses of human beings are generally a malignant force. Masses of human beings gathered in unity under an idea that they think (the operative word being think) is right or true is downright dangerous. We humans are fundamentally tainted, isn't that what one of those books says? What makes us think that a bunch of us getting together and corrupting the truth with our doctrine and dogma could possibly produce something that's not tainted, much less good?!? I believe that we can return to God's (in an effort to use a universally accepted term, I will refer to the entity/force/universal truth as God) truth as individuals. I am fairly certain that our subjective experience of that truth cannot be shared in a meaningful way with others and still remain the truth. I have not yet seen the truth realized in a GROUP of humans, but I have seen it in the absence of humans. Religion-not so good. Spirituality-you'd be dangerously naive to think that you can live without it. HOW'S THAT FOR DOGMA??!?

geoffrey

:asian: ;)
 

Zepp

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I think it is possible to have organized religion without dogma. The problems with organized religion stem from how people use it, not religion itself. (Kind of like the "guns don't kill people, people kill people" argument that some you gun nuts make. :D )

For all its problems, you have to keep in mind that our very idea of morality and ethics originally came from organized religion.
 
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rmcrobertson

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It was indeed Karl Marx who called religion the, "opiate of the masses," in his and Engels' "Communist Manifesto." Interestingly, however, his point was that people took religion for the same reasons that they take aspiring--religion kills the pain of living under capitalism. His further point was that a) the powers-that-be administered religion to keep people quiet, and b) the point was that without capitalism, people would have a chance at a real life--and, one suspects, real faith.

It's all very well to try and separate "real," religion from the bad kind. Problem is, it's like separating a scrambled egg..
 
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yilisifu

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It is when a church forgets it's spiritual purpose and begins to focus on other things (like money..) that they run into trouble.

But as for saying that groups of people cannot share "truth" without warping it, that is sheer nonsense. We cannot hope that eahc of us finds the "truth" on his or her own...it's like reinventing the wheel every day.

That's why we have teachers.
 

TargetAlex

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A discussion on religion...and nobody has thrown any insults. I'm impressed.

The original question was "Would life be better IYO without Religion?"

This is difficult to answer because religion is so much a part of the human condition. From the moment man could not explain something, he decided their must be a higher power at work. Soon, man decided there must be an appropriate way to address this 'higher power', and designed a method of worship. In time, due to regional separations or simple difference of opinion, the 'method of worship' became a tool that divided people instead of uniting them.

It has been said that "It's not our preferences that cause problems, but our attachment to them." In the Qu'uran and the Bible this is taught as 'tolerence towards the difference of others'. Unfortunately, this is the often ignored lesson that religion was meant to teach. Instead, many religious followers, regardless of sect, follow the 'my way is the only true way to worship' mantra. This happens when you attempt to organize a belief into a system... you find yourself trying to enforce/defend this belief, which often ends with the system being imposed on others, in order to 'save their souls.'

Would the world be a better place without religion? Religion in its essence, is not a bad thing. It is the greed, ignorance, and hatred of some of its members that claim to act in its name that are the problem. Without religion, these people would just find another way to lash out at society, and take advantage of the weak. Bad people exist, and they use many different cloaks to try to get away with their behavior, not just religion.
 
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Master of Blades

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Originally posted by TargetAlex
A discussion on religion...and nobody has thrown any insults. I'm impressed.


Read the God thread ;)
 

Yari

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Originally posted by Master of Blades


Would life be better IYO without Religeon?


:asian:


I don't think the question is valid.

In a sence each person has his own religion or philosophy. Each person has his own ethicle rules, which are the core of each religion / philosophy. With out these we probably would "just be" animals.

So were we have the conshenness (sp?)[ability to think] to 'be' ,religion will exsist, in one sense or the other. You cant seperate it.

/Yari
 

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