45 Degree kick

[ATC]

It doesn't make sense if you are used to kicking the 45 and not the full hip turn roundhouse. Kicking 45 to the backside is how most people injure their insteps on their opponent's elbow.

That is why we aim for the hip or butt, not the back. They won't get the elbow down that low, and if they do they will be bending and the second kick will be to the face and will be a KO.

Exactly, but if you hit the first kick soft, then all it does is trigger the back kick response. Back Kick or spin hook counter to double is a common hogu drill, something elite athletes train for. It is or should be as common a hogu drill as back kick counter to roundhouse to the front side.

The double is to fast and because your first kick is to the back side (the side the backkick would be coming from) almost everyone would try a hujin or slide back. This still won't work as the rebound makes the second kick to fast and you are up a bit and your leg is above theirs so they can't kick you.

Trust me it works and works well the way the kick has evolved. Plus you can also take the second kick to the face.

Also if you do start the double kick to the front side and you see the back kick coming you simply use the second kick to the back side as a push to the back side hip and watch your opponent go flying backwards and spinning down to the ground.

Look at the clip of my son in my sig and at the 18 second mark of the clip you will see my son do a single kick followup with a double. The double starts to the back side and finished up to the front side. He actually scored to the back side with the double, not the front, but he did the kick correctly (by our teachings). There is no way to back kick the double when started to the back side of your opponent. Well I should not say no way, as someone with great timing can score with any kick at any time to anywhere, but it does make it more difficult.

 

[armortkd]

He actually started doing that at 1983 Worlds.



It doesn't make sense if you are used to kicking the 45 and not the full hip turn roundhouse. Kicking 45 to the backside is how most people injure their insteps on their opponent's elbow.




Exactly, but if you hit the first kick soft, then all it does is trigger the back kick response. Back Kick or spin hook counter to double is a common hogu drill, something elite athletes train for. It is or should be as common a hogu drill as back kick counter to roundhouse to the front side.

He was nailing everyone in 1985 and in 1983 his doubles weren't as good. I said on my post that I agreed with Andrew. Kicking kidney-side on the opponent's hip/thigh shuts off the Back Kicks since most are trapping or countering off-the-line kicks. The mistake that players make with getting countered by the Back Kick is too long distance, not kicking the hip/thigh, and checking.

 

[armortkd]

That is why we aim for the hip or butt, not the back. They won't get the elbow down that low, and if they do they will be bending and the second kick will be to the face and will be a KO.

The double is to fast and because your first kick is to the back side (the side the backkick would be coming from) almost everyone would try a hujin or slide back. This still won't work as the rebound makes the second kick to fast and you are up a bit and your leg is above theirs so they can't kick you.

Trust me it works and works well the way the kick has evolved. Plus you can also take the second kick to the face.

Also if you do start the double kick to the front side and you see the back kick coming you simply use the second kick to the back side as a push to the back side hip and watch your opponent go flying backwards and spinning down to the ground.

Look at the clip of my son in my sig and at the 18 second mark of the clip you will see my son do a single kick followup with a double. The double starts to the back side and finished up to the front side. He actually scored to the back side with the double, not the front, but he did the kick correctly (by our teachings). There is no way to back kick the double when started to the back side of your opponent. Well I should not say no way, as someone with great timing can score with any kick at any time to anywhere, but it does make it more difficult.

That's right on!!! Slipping the Double Kick after an inital kick is what most elite players do. Using a lead leg Ax Kick with a direct Ap Bal motion is a great counter for closed stance Double Kick.

 

[puunui]

That is why we aim for the hip or butt, not the back. They won't get the elbow down that low, and if they do they will be bending and the second kick will be to the face and will be a KO.

We try not to kick below the belt because of the kyong go factor. The IRs will call you on it at WTF International Events and they don't the opposing coach will protest and do video review. But you can get away with it maybe at national or local events.

The double is to fast and because your first kick is to the back side (the side the backkick would be coming from) almost everyone would try a hujin or slide back. This still won't work as the rebound makes the second kick to fast and you are up a bit and your leg is above theirs so they can't kick you.

Usually back kick comes out if you are known to throw double kick in certain situations and they practice to set you up for it. Or if you tag the guy with the double kick and he does a quick jump back kick counter. I'm sure you know the situation that I am talking about.

Trust me it works and works well the way the kick has evolved. Plus you can also take the second kick to the face.

I'm sure it works, especially in lower level competition. My only point is that it increases the chance of a back kick counter if you don't hit the first kick hard. If that isn't an issue for you or your player, or if you are accepting of that probability, then ok. That is the "art" of Taekwondo competition, everyone does it differently and there is no correct answer.

Also if you do start the double kick to the front side and you see the back kick coming you simply use the second kick to the back side as a push to the back side hip and watch your opponent go flying backwards and spinning down to the ground.

The only time I would double to the front side first is if the second kick were to the head, over their shoulder. But that is risky because of the padduh chagi counter issue. In that situation, it might be better to do a triple, so you end in closed stance.

There is no way to back kick the double when started to the back side of your opponent.

The two times back kick comes up on double is in between the first and second kick, and after the second kick.

 

[armortkd]

Really? IRs calling kyongos for the inital kick to the thigh/hip/butt on Double Kick! LMAO!!! My stepfather coached us this way, and he told us that at an IR refresher that they were taught the concept of "elevation of action". Using Doubles, Triples, and Cut (Bullet) into Back/Spin Hook Kicks.....IRs allowed players to hit the upper thigh/butt/hip if there was no intent to injure and the focus was the finishing kick.

Mark Lopez is a rare elite athlete who can hit Doubles, Fast (Lead Leg) Doubles, and Triples all on the body. Even he hits below the hogu. One cool instance is when he throw a Triple Kick and all three scored to the body on LaJust!!!

 

[puunui]

Really? IRs calling kyongos for the inital kick to the thigh/hip/butt on Double Kick! LMAO!!! My stepfather coached us this way, and he told us that at an IR refresher that they were taught the concept of "elevation of action". Using Doubles, Triples, and Cut (Bullet) into Back/Spin Hook Kicks.....IRs allowed players to hit the upper thigh/butt/hip if there was no intent to injure and the focus was the finishing kick.

That might have been the way it was back in the 90's for a while. Back then people were kicking the leg hard on double kick to gain the edge on racing the counter back kick/padduh chagi, similar to pounding the backside hard. But that is what I was told by an IR, don't kick the leg, butt, hip or anywhere below the belt on double or you risk the kyong go. Just passing on what was told to me.

 

[ATC]

That might have been the way it was back in the 90's for a while. Back then people were kicking the leg hard on double kick to gain the edge on racing the counter back kick/padduh chagi, similar to pounding the backside hard. But that is what I was told by an IR, don't kick the leg, butt, hip or anywhere below the belt on double or you risk the kyong go. Just passing on what was told to me.

No that is even now at all events state side and international. Master Jung is a good friend of our Sabum and is and IR. Master Ann Koo the head IR in the US is a really good friend of our Sabum and they both will disagree with you on this. If you only kick below the hogu with the intent on only kicking below the hogu, yes you will get warned. Other than that no. What we are describing will not get call 100 times out of 100.

 

[puunui]

No that is even now at all events state side and international. Master Jung is a good friend of our Sabum and is and IR. Master Ann Koo the head IR in the US is a really good friend of our Sabum and they both will disagree with you on this. If you only kick below the hogu with the intent on only kicking below the hogu, yes you will get warned. Other than that no. What we are describing will not get call 100 times out of 100.

I just confirmed it today with a leading IR. But if you say so, go ahead. Who is Master Jung? Merrill Jung? Also Anne Ku isn't the head IR in the US.

 

[ATC]

I just confirmed it today with a leading IR. But if you say so, go ahead. Who is Master Jung? Merrill Jung? Also Anne Ku isn't the head IR in the US.

Sorry for the spelling errors. And I may stand corrected about Ms. Ku's title but she is high ranking US ref and IR ref as well.

With that said my the issue of the double kick still stands. Regardless the latter of the rule, the refs will not call what we discribed as a kyungo, they just won't.

 

[puunui]

Who is Master Jung? Merrill Jung?

 

[ATC]

I do not know his first name. I only know him as Master Jung, if I am spelling his name correctly.

 

[puunui]

I do not know his first name. I only know him as Master Jung, if I am spelling his name correctly.

Is it this Master Jung?

http://www.koreanmartialarts.com/AboutKMAC/Instructors.html

 

[tinker1]

Just my opinion, but what angle I use on that kick depends entirely on what I'm wanting to hit.

If I am looking to put some power into someone, then I will use an angle that it 90 degrees to the striking plane. For example I will use an uprising kick (45 degree kick to you) to strike either the hamstring area (a sweep), or up under the ribs (driving the abdomen upward into the rib cage).

If I am in competition, I still want to strike with power, but will sometimes use one technique to open my opponent up to a more powerful strike. For example I will use a version of round kick (turning kick) where my hips roll all the way over such that the kick actually comes at a downward angle. I use this to pull my opponents arms out of a guarding position, then will initially follow up with hook or straight punches to the head / chest, and will sometimes (opportunity depending) follow up with an axe kick.

Master Choi also taught us to do what he called a *traditional* round kick - using the ball of the foot instead of the instep when we were competing in taekwondo style competition. Because of the way the TKD vest fits, your opponent sometimes has trouble keeping their elbows toward the center of their chest when blocking. A *traditional* round kick strike with the ball of the foot falls neatly between their arms right to the center of their chest.

 

[puunui]

Here is an opinion from another IR, another who is way more senior than Anne Ku:

***

You stated it perfectly: any kick below the waist RISKS a kyungo, including multiple kicks that begin below the waist. The rule is clear. Even when multiple kicks beginning below the waist were more tolerated, even encouraged, there was the possibility of a kyungo. I'm sure you have noticed that sort of attack is much less common these days. Perhaps because IR's have been directed to apply the rule in a stricter fashion. Coaches and players may decide the risk is worth it. But they can't be truly surprised if a kyungo is called. They will lose any video replay request or protest.

***

So you can risk it, and maybe it isn't being called, but I wouldn't want to be in a final match at the Olympics or World Championships and you lose because you get a kyong go for the first time for kicking below the waist.

 

[ATC]

Is it this Master Jung?

http://www.koreanmartialarts.com/AboutKMAC/Instructors.html

No this is him as center ref in the photo belwo. Note the player in the photo also. He is starting a double kick, note where the first kick has landed.

 

[puunui]

Note the player in the photo also. He is starting a double kick, note where the first kick has landed.

Hard to tell where the first kick landed, but if Blue was like that, leaning back, I would left hand cover punch him, and if he didn't fall to the ground, follow up with left leg ap bal to his face. Red is perfectly situated for that. Red is looking at Blue's eyes, which are staring at Red's hogu, so the probability is that Red will kick to the hogu. Blue's weight is too high, which tends to happen when you 45 kick or even front kick on the double. It makes him vulnerable to cover punch. There is less of a tendency to do that (float upwards) when kicking properly and horizontally.

It's ok, do what you want, but the higher you go, the more precise I think you have to be. Steven Lopez wins in part because of the precision of his movements.

Some more from the senior IR:

***

Me: Why would you want to kick the butt or hip if electronic scoring has a possibility of giving you two points for a double kick?

IR Answer: Well that is the real reason smart people don't do them as much anymore, no points. Multiple kicks were encouraged and enforcement of the low kick kalyeo declined about, well you would know better, ten years ago(?) to encourage more action. It had the desired effect but also created many problems. Now it's all about the spin and the WTF is more comfortable decreeing stricter enforcement of the low kick rule. Finally video replay is affecting the enforcement of this and a number of other rules.

***

You might wish to clarify with Masters Ku and Jung about this. Or not.

 

[ATC]

Some more from the senior IR:

***

Me: Why would you want to kick the butt or hip if electronic scoring has a possibility of giving you two points for a double kick?

IR Answer: Well that is the real reason smart people don't do them as much anymore, no points. Multiple kicks were encouraged and enforcement of the low kick kalyeo declined about, well you would know better, ten years ago(?) to encourage more action. It had the desired effect but also created many problems. Now it's all about the spin and the WTF is more comfortable decreeing stricter enforcement of the low kick rule. Finally video replay is affecting the enforcement of this and a number of other rules.

***

You might wish to clarify with Masters Ku and Jung about this. Or not.

Again I don't doubt the rule, all I am saying is that it does not get called. Even if it does it is only a 1/2 point deduction. If you score consistantly with it then you are coming out ahead. Plus they don't call it.

As for trying to double full turn full turn, that is easy (albeit slower). it is triples and quads that will give you issues.

Ask Phillip Yun how he does it and how they teach it today. He has been traveling quite a bit recently.

 

[puunui]

As for trying to double full turn full turn, that is easy (albeit slower). it is triples and quads that will give you issues.

I think it is easier to do triples and more if you turn your hip and shoulder over rather than the 45 or front kick thing. We have a drill where we go 10-100 alternating doubles on a bag. Or we do timed drills on a bag, how many you can do in a certain about of time. Once you can do that, multiples come naturally. Hip and shoulder turn too.

As for Phillip Yun, I am sure he is good, but it doesn't look like he won anything major at any WTF International Events.

http://usa-taekwondo.us/athletes/phillip-yun

 

[ATC]

I think it is easier to do triples and more if you turn your hip and shoulder over rather than the 45 or front kick thing. We have a drill where we go 10-100 alternating doubles on a bag. Or we do timed drills on a bag, how many you can do in a certain about of time. Once you can do that, multiples come naturally. Hip and shoulder turn too.

As for Phillip Yun, I am sure he is good, but it doesn't look like he won anything major at any WTF International Events.

http://usa-taekwondo.us/athletes/phillip-yun

See again we seem to be looking at the same thing not seeing or hearing one another. I never said anything about not turning the sholders or even the hips for that matter. Just the angle of the fist kick in a double. Even on triples you need to turn the hip and shoulders but the angle of the first kick is always a the lightest the lowest and most times at a 45 or even straight up and down (front kick). Think of it as a starter kick or primer kick. It is not your intended scoreing kick. Not every technique will land nor should you try to make every technique land. Now you can do that on someone that is not any good, yes.

As for why I asked you to ask Phillip, you stated once before that he was your student, not for reasons of him winning or losing anything.

Anyhow it doesn't matter. Quite a few of the top U.S. fighters have been by our studio to train with Master Suh and they all respect his skill and knowledge and he teaches what I have stated so, in the end we will both do what works for us as we have been trained. If it was all about one way only working then we would just build some robots, program them, and watch them go.

 

[puunui]

As for why I asked you to ask Phillip, you stated once before that he was your student, not for reasons of him winning or losing anything.

I never said Phillip Yun was my student. As far as I know, I thought he was GM Young In Cheon's student.

Anyhow it doesn't matter. Quite a few of the top U.S. fighters have been by our studio to train with Master Suh and they all respect his skill and knowledge and he teaches what I have stated so, in the end we will both do what works for us as we have been trained. If it was all about one way only working then we would just build some robots, program them, and watch them go.

I can't tell you how many coaches have said that they wish their students were robots with remote controls attached. But that is what makes Taekwondo a self discovery tool. You find out who you are and what you can and cannot do. You choose to do what you do, thereby creating your own way. You are in control of your own life.