4 things needed to destroy myth of creator deity

punisher73

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Bob's right. It is a good question.

Unfortunately, Mr. Pastore's arguments are weak.

He starts with an argument of appeal to authority: "Aristotle, Aquinas," etc.-but doesn't offer any of what they had to say on the subject, only that they made things difficult for him. At this point, as a scientist, it's worth pointing out that the "father of the scientific method," Aristotle, was guilty of many simple mistakes, like the observation that male humans have more teeth than females, or that heavier objects fall faster than lighter ones. While it's impossible to discount the importance and meaning of his work, he's hardly an "authority" worthy of appeal...

He then proceeds to delineate his "four big bangs." His lack of understanding of the first one is not surprising: people here on MT often have expressed their difficulty in grasping the idea of "nothing." That he makes this an either/or proposition in terms of a deity is a basic mistake-just as it is with the other three "big bangs," that demonstrate less and less understanding as he progresses.The idea that it all just "banged" isn't what the "big bang" theory really says at all, and we can see evidence of transitional stages in the universe's development through astrology-by looking at objects and events that are further away from us, we are literally looking further and further back in time toward the initiating events of the universe, and seeing evidence of the transitions that Mr. Pastore claims do not exist in his understanding of the theory.

I'll leave his muddled understanding of biology to a biologist like Empty Hands to really dissect-I'll just point oput that he's wrong:artificial life was created in the laboratory two years ago. Of course, it's entirely possible that he filmed this segment before this took place.....in any case, he's wrong.

His "anthropological" big bang could simply be attributed to evolution, and usually is-he needs to take a look at some of the work being done in evolutionary anthropology.

His psychological big bang also could be attributed to evolution. Funnily enough, his argument that animals don't do art is, again, simply wrong: elephants do art. Who is Mr. Pastore to make humankind the exclusive arbiters of beauty and truth on the planet? What does he know of whales and their-undeniably beautiful-song? What truths, given the chance, could they tell us?

HE closes by saying that we're confronted with a choice: "faith" in "four big bangs," or "faith in a Creator," when, in fact, there really doesn't have to be a choice at all. One can believe in a Creator and accept current scientific theory-the two are neither mutually exclusive nor set in stone-even the believer has doubt:

The "creating life" article states in it that scientists are a long way of from creating artificial life. Even in the article it states that they started with a living bacteria and then implanted a different genetic structure to "reboot" it. They did not create something from nothing.

As to the elephants and art. Is it art if we train them to do it? Do we have examples of animals doing art in their natural habitate? Are their examples of animals "creating" things outside of rudimentary tools to get food?
 

Stealthy

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The Fourth Big Bang is easy....Our ancestors started tripping for fun and due to the complex abstract disturbances to the brains interpretations of memories and data from the sense organs the early humans brains out of necessity grew at an astonishing rate in an effort to "work out" what was going on(a brains principle function). Much the same as doing weights forces muscles to grow.

http://www.newscientist.com/article...vidence-for-magic-mushroom-use-in-europe.html

For the record though, I am a Ninja though so my theology starts and ends with a belief in the Ninja Master.
 

Ken Morgan

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Why does it matter so much to some people what others believe or don't believe?

As long as it stays out of the schools, out of the government, is not forced down peoples throats, and my taxes dont have to pay for your beliefs, you can believe whatever you want to believe.
 

Empty Hands

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Personally I am still waiting for the imminent discovery of those infinite mid-stage variants of inter-species evolutionary fossils before I make up my mind. Ah the genius of Darwin.

It's already happened. Dinosaurs with feathers. Progressively hominid fossils. Fish with lungs. Still alive, a lizard species in the midst of transition from egg laying to live birth.

A few minutes on Google would have shown you innumerable transitional fossils. Like this set:
Fossil_homs_labeled.preview.jpg


Transitional fossils are not even slightly rare. The fact that you think they don't exist demonstrates that you have already made up your mind instead of looking first.
 

JohnEdward

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Pastore is an entertainer, and writer. I don't give much credit to what entertainers say, and what they write. They have an underlining monetary motive to get people to buy their product, be it listening to their radio show, or buy their books or both. Because he is a media personality, his credibility is questionable. Second, the venue, Prager U....Dennis Prager, also a media personality has the same vested interest, needing fans...um followers... and a monetary and self interest gain. A red flag in the creditability dept., for me. Maybe not for other people who use Dennis and his institution to persuade others to think and feel they way they do. That is fine, but that isn't me, I tend to be more open minded, read things myself and come to my own conclusions, rather dependent on self appointed others to do that for me. Because umm...they could be wrong. That right there is enough from me to weight very lightly what Pastore is saying.

He also said he was an Atheist. To be an Atheist you have to believe in the Judaism God (reference the middle east for context), coming out of Egypt where it is said the Jews where impoverished slaves, and the hoopla over many gods vs. one God (reference Cecil B. DeMille's movie "The 10 Commandments" for background and effect). Sure Atheism has over time included all gods or higher powers. But Atheism really comes out of/counters the belief of a Jewish God's existence. To deny something you have to believe it first. So it isn't surprising Pastore's epiphany would be in the context of the Jewish God and all the Europeanized/Catholic morphing attached to it. Like that of Da Vinci's art work on the Sistine Chapel ceiling. His reference point for God came from a pre-existing model that he was cultured with as a child, and later at some point rejected it, would of course be the later accept religious model. He doesn't say that he believes that of which is greater than him exists are Ame-no-Minaka-Nushi-no-Mikoto, Takami-Musubi-no-Mikoto and Kammi-Musubi-no-Mikoto, who created all things. No, he supports the Jewish view of one God. It is important to note where his choice creation myth comes from, and what creation myth he was trying to disprove.

Pastor also over-looks and thereby giving no credit to how life is created. He says science still can't create life from nothing, from all the elements. He has failed to include us. Yes, believe it our not, WE create life and so does most all other living creatures. Yep out of nothing, from elements. WE create life. So many cultures credit something beyond them in their creation myths that explain our existence, yet it is simply the fact we do, and those creation myth are model on our reproduction methods, i.e.patterned off of sex and birth. But who made us, then begs the question? Well that is the really question isn't it, we did. Be it the first man we came from the soil, and the women from his rib, or the first humans born from the sea, we create life. Yea, babies in our own likeness from nowhere and out of nothing, like so many other creatures do too. Pastore failed to see how life is created.

He assumes that beauty/aesthetics (often used by some as a symbolical reference/ parallelism of the abstract idea of Faith; God's existence in the monotheistic religions) is something no other creature sees but us. No other creature, BUT US, comprehends the abstraction of God- yea we are the center of the Universe, everything revolves around us. What he doesn't realize is you are not born to appreciated beauty, and it is something that develops late in our childhood, or even in our adulthood. That is we are told, cultured, etc. what is and isn't beauty. We are taught to appreciate it, we are told it is a higher function of humans, and those who don't or appreciate other definitions are uncultured, less sophisticated, unintelligent. That in itself is darn right ignorant.
It is a propaganda and persuasion tool, to convince us to buy into what other people what us to think and believe. The perfect beer comes in a can that tells you when to drink it, at the perfect temperature.

Pastor pulls out all the tricks try to persuade his views are the correct ones. I don't know, I can't get past all the tricks he is using to make a well informed decision about what he is saying to be true or not. And what God appointed him to spread the "truth," himself? I have put this one on the shelf.
 

Archangel M

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Yea, babies in our own likeness from nowhere and out of nothing, like so many other creatures do too. Pastore failed to see how life is created.

Nothing? Uhh I believe there is a well established body of evidence that eggs and sperm are involved. If you are talking about the process by which our bodies creates them..Chicken? Egg?
 

RandomPhantom700

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Why does it matter so much to some people what others believe or don't believe?

Because when there's two (or more than two) different beliefs on a subject, that leaves the possibility that one's belief might be the wrong one. And when the subject is something that one finds to be fundamental , such as religion or the meaning of life or what have you, the possibility that one's belief is wrong threatens one's very ego.
 

SensibleManiac

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Why does it matter so much to some people what others believe or don't believe?

For myself personally, I care when people start killing each other over it... which happens alot... Other than that, what's wrong with promoting critical thinking? There's nothing wrong with it, except to those that aren't thinking, right?

I don't for a second pretend to own the truth or that my views are the be all, end all of logic, because they aren't. Honestly it seems like the more we understand the more questions arise and the more there is to question and understand, but that's the beauty of it, I think.

Will we ever escape from nonsense? Probably in the near future we'll further merge with machines and this will take humanity to another level, one where we'll hopefully become more rational. Time will tell.
 

crushing

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I don't know the 4 things that would destroy the myth but I know a few things keep it going.

1. Lite beer
2. Beer Drinking Rednecks (what else kid are there)
3. Ann Coulter and Homer Simpson
4. The missionary position
5. more lite beer with the can that tells you the beer is at the perfect cold temp.

Only a creator deity could put a world together where one has to "man up" to drink a light yellow fizzy nearly tasteless diet beer. Nothing keeps the myth spinning like an ice cold Miller vortex pour!
 

JohnEdward

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I am not trying to persuade anyone in case that is what is being thought. Just things I think about.
 

JohnEdward

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Nothing? Uhh I believe there is a well established body of evidence that eggs and sperm are involved. If you are talking about the process by which our bodies creates them..Chicken? Egg?

Yea, that is my point, sperm and an ovum, a god isn't up there making humans out of mud puddle. We come from nowhere when we are born-it is a matter of cells dividing which is not completely understood- more than it was thousands of years ago- that is what forms us. No different than what happened in theory as a result of the Big Bang. Our coming into being is a big bang of sorts isn't it.

The common property with many creation myths, is no explanation of where the first beings come from. Was Adam ever a child? How was Adam made, what clay patch did he come from? Eve surely wasn't from the same dirt patch that Adam was from, she came from his rib. Cain and Able where born from Eve, not from a dirt patch. Do we not all suppose to come from Adam and Eve? We don't come out of a dirt patch into existence. And how are the other creatures made, where do they come from other planets and placed here? Where did God come from? "He" always existed? That puts God into the Big Bang theory described by Pastore which he disputes. Pastore disputes the idea of the Big Bang of something coming out of nothing. But it miss him, that God fails into the big bang theory idea too. Where does God come from, how did God came into existence? If he is the alpha and omega, he doesn't come from anywhere. That makes it even more complex the idea of something coming from nothing. Pastore can't have it both ways, he can't dispute something coming from nothing, yet, support the idea that something can never came into existence, it will and always be there. If you believe in God that is fine by me, I don't dispute that concept, you have to believe something comes from nothing, a simpler concept than that of something always being in existence, something that doesn't come from nowhere into somewhere, because it is already there. The theory of something from nothing then is more plausible.​
 

oftheherd1

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I haven't read his book, has anyone here? He seems to be saying he was challenged to disprove theism, and could not.

As to the question of faith, even the atheist has it. His faith is that there is no God. There is no way to scientifically prove either way. Either you believe in a superior being(s), or you do not. You may put an identification to that belief, or like the agnostic, not.

Myself, I am a Christian. I believe in one God in three parts; the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. I believe God the Son, Jesus Christ, came to earth in human form to shed His blood to pay for the sins of anyone who will believe that and ask for forgiveness from sin that Jesus' blood purchased, and ask Jesus into their heart, claiming the salvation that offers, by calling on the name of the Lord. I believe that belief will ensure when I die I will go to heaven. I also believe that God gives us free will to choose to believe Him and His Bible, or not. The consequences for those not believing are to go to hell when they die, and no chance to leave there for all eternety. I believe that based on reading the Bible, and by faith.

Since I believe in free will, everyone is entitled to make up their own mind. I cannot, nor by my reading ot the Bible, should not try, to force anyone to accept my beliefs. I can only explain them and hope people accept those beliefs, and by faith believe as I do.

So to all you you who do not believe in God, that is your choice. I will not argue with you, but will be happy to explain what the Bible says. Since Christianity is a faith based religion, it would be foolish of me to argue with you. You may choose to belive the Bible, or not. I don't hate you nor consider you stupid. Only lost. You are free to think of me as you wish as well.
 

cdunn

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Why does it matter so much to some people what others believe or don't believe?

"Witches" still get burnt.


Also, the athiest doesn't really need that much 'faith'. Many of us, I expect, file the concept of God as 'extremely unlikely, therefore, not worth bothering with'. The only faith I am asked to have is that the scientific fields report their data and interpretations thereof with reasonable honesty - and I always have, in theory, the option to verify, even though I may not have the means. We ask ourselves not to believe, one way or another, but to assess what information is available to us, and act on what is most likely to be. I don't have to cling to anything in the face of evidence. I don't have to 'test my faith'.
 
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oftheherd1

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JohnEdward (and others) - I think his metaphorical use of the term big bang, and stating there are 4, is done in a mis-leading way. The Big Bang is a theory that speaks of a specific cosmology. It has its difficulties just as the cosmology of a Creator God who spoke the earth and heavens into existence. On faith, I accept the later. Others on faith, accept the Big Bang. Others accept other cosmologies. But no way can his other three occurences be considered to have the cataclysmic beginnings of a Big Bang.

I don't know, but considering his venue, I can only guess he says what he does to creat controversy and discussion.

As to sperm and egg, that is a way many species continue their species. It isn't the only strategy. A single celled organism divides, a virus seems to survive by stealing life processes from other cells, and some still question if it is even "life." As to Adam and Eve, it is a matter of faith. You believe or you don't. Just as you believe whatever it is that you believe.
 
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billc

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And scientists, of all disciplines also have an underlying need for money. That is why you catch some of them making things up, discrediting the work of other scientists and doing those things that "entertainers" also do.
 

Archangel M

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I would argue that "We" dont "create" anything when we reproduce. Cell division is a bilogcically mechanical process. The mystery of the process of consciousness seems to be the metaphor of "Adam and Eve" IMO. Rather than a literal belief that man was created wholesale from clay.
 
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billc

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Look up archeology scandals and you can see that scientists are no more pure than any other of Gods creatures.
 

JohnEdward

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Bill agreed. It is entertainers and personalities on the whole I discredit as an authority. There is nut jobs out there from all sorts of walks of life with slants pushing something so people will bite. I am not completely sold on the Big Bang theory either, or support the theory of evolution as it is presently presented, there are still lots of holes in it. I don't throw out the idea of a God or gods, just the fanatics. It is all a matter of junk science and junk religion, and the fanatics in each camp I give no credibility to, as they are both obsessed with being right. Just because someone says something doesn't make it true. Stories and myths exist in both science and religion because it is something as as default, we humans do when we don't know poop and we want to know it or our egos get in the way. We love a good mystery and either solve it or explain it. We are driven to know, and can't accept it is, as it is, and we have to persuade everyone else of what we believe or find, especially those who don't agree. Frankly I find that strange, and more pressing than how the universe came into existence.
 

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