4 things needed to destroy myth of creator deity

[Ken Morgan]

It's a creepy little thing isn't it?!!

As a skeptic, I question what you experienced, however having gotten to know you on the forums over the years, I know for certain you experienced something. It's interesting.

 

[elder999]

Curing cancer is an excellent example as given. I am diagnosed with a strange mutation cervical cancer. Embarrassment caused me to ignore symptoms. Now the disease is at a too advanced stage to allow for invasive procedure or radiotherapies to function. My consultant is, for me, the public face of science. He is published in The Lancet. Regarding oncology, he knows inherently what is fact and what is wishful fantasy. His statements are backed by endless research, I trust him even in his assurances that I will die. It takes me a while to assimilate what he says. Two weeks later, and so certain is he of his evidence that he must abide by his financial duty of care to our National Health Service and withdraws funding for my horrendously expensive medications. I am on my own. Yet I do not abide by his metric of science on which I have incontrovertable evidence of my imminent death. I abide by one of blind faith and belief that tells me that he is (in this case) wrong because he has measured my rate of deterioration on a scale of science that is itself based upon assumption, which unfortunately is backed by *apparently* repeated proof. I choose to disavow his scale and trust my own. It is blind trust based on nothing except something that I believe. That I am not supposed to die yet. Tell me I am wrong.

1[SUP]st[/SUP] off, Jenna, let me belatedly add how glad I am that there’s no pressing ailment. I’ve thought about it a bit since you posted, though, and I think I’ll run with your metaphor t-at least my reply won’t seem nearly as heartless as it might have had the circumstances you outlined been true, ‘cause Jenna:

You’re going to die.

“Someday,” of course, and that’s really the point. Most of us live under the illusion that there’ll always be plenty of time, that “tomorrow is another day,” that we’re going to live….well, forever. And we’re not. And we know it, but somehow we maintain this illusion in our day to day life. The best we can really say is “not yet,” or ”not today,” but we really have no choice in the matter: the day will come, one way or another, that “not today” is proven for the lie that it is, and that “not yet” is, in fact, right now.

We’ll get hit by buses, wreck cars and motorcycles, slip in the bathroom, fall from great heights, drown surfing, get struck by lightning, mugged in dark alleys, shot from great distances, laid low by cancer, tuberculosis, leukemia, the flu, the common cold, suffer anaphylactic shock from allergic reactions to peanut butter, or shellfish, or strawberries, or bee stings, get stung by scorpions, bitten by poisonous snakes, eaten by grizzly bears, eaten by mountain lions, eaten by wolves, eaten by staph, mauled by dogs, contract rabies, contract measles, contract chicken pox, contract mumps, contract dengue fever, contract ebola, contract HIV, our ships will sink, our trains will wreck, our space shuttle will go out in a blaze of glory. Hurricanes, tsunami, earthquakes, tornados, mudslides and avalanches will sweep us off our feet. We’ll fall through the ice when skating or fishing, or,perhaps, simply go to sleep and not wake up. Some of us will live to be aged, and others will not even live long enough to be aware of it.

For those in between, it’s almost always “not yet,” for the most part. Even for those of us struck by toilets from space: [yt]ugWpj88EWt4[/yt]

Liked that show. Loved that! :lfao:

And, without the sci-fi speculation about the nature of the afterlife, that’s pretty accurate-really. Unless you’re terminally ill, one moment you’re picking daisies…..and the next you’re pushing them up.

For those of us who are aware on a daily basis of the imminence and certainty of death (always at my shoulder, ready at a moment’s notice) that knowledge comes at a cost-whether through daily exposure to death in combat, or facing it down through disease, or dire circumstance, or through ritual and meditation-a cost has to be paid. And it’s not knowledge that is available on an intellectual level, except in the most abstract way-sure, you can say,” Someday I’m going to die,” but unless you’ve been in a foxhole or been buried alive or been sick or been in a monastery for years, you’re not going to convince me, never mind yourself: you are lying. And that’s okay. I think it’s a lie that a lot of us-men especially-need to get through day to day life. It’s a lie, though, nonetheless, ‘cause I’m going to die, someday……………...And so are you.

What to do with this knowledge, that we’ll pass from, well, a life as good as this one? What do you do about it? How do you live with it?

Well, like I said, you could live under the illusion that you’re not going to. Most people do, and power to them…..

You could go to war. See friends blown up and shot around you, face death every day until it becomes a reality that you’re inured to. That way, for many, leads to PTSD, anti-social behavior, and, at the very least, ennui if not genuine nihilism. For some, it’s right where they’re supposed to be, and they’re okay, but they’re also few and far between. Or be a cop, or a firefighter. Both jobs offer the same sort of enlightenment, and the same sorts of pitfalls, just over a longer term.

You could join a monastery or religious order-this is as much a retreat from life as it is facing death, I think, and I have to wonder about its efficacy. Having known more than a few monastics, I can say that many of them seem to have that equanimity about their knowledge of death, but some also seem….confused.

I did mention rituals. All religions have their roots in shamanism. When we all lived in the forest, so to speak, and religion was a newly created technology, each person got to face death by metaphorically experiencing it, and journeying to the underworld. This is the essence of the shamanic experience-one would be buried alive, or go into a cave, or be led through some other experience that simulated a metaphorical journey into death. After that, of course, living with the fact of death is supposed to be easy. This type of ritual still exists in tribal societies, college courses in comparative religions, and expensive New Age encounter groups. :lol: Certainly, from my experience, it’s an effective way of being free of the fear of death, and being free of that fear is the first step towards acceptance and acknowledgement, of not living under the illusion of “not yet”



Of course, as we “progressed” and became “civilized,” religion became hierarchical, and such experiences were reserved for priests or deities, or the elite. All too often, it was the deity that made the metaphorical journey to the underworld-the deity that died and was reborn. Thus it is that Mithras, Jesus, and Osiris suffer, die and are resurrected, in place of the individuals in the populace., which is, as others have pointed out, now under control.

You could get sick-as in gravely ill, as in having the doctors tell you and your parents how little time you have left, year after year. Having started life that way, and really lived a little less, now, than the first third of my life expecting to die of my ailments, I can say that as much as I wouldn’t change that part of my life, I wouldn’t wish it on anyone, for a bunch of reasons. I was an odd kid, anyway-having been around profoundly ill children, there’s a terrible sadness and knowing to them, like an 11 year old girl who just knows she’s never going to be kissed. I, on the other hand, have always been an optimist-I’m a bit of an oddball. The way it worked for me, precocious lad that I’m told that I was, I found out that our sun will die, someday, as In 5 billion years or so from now. The sun will become a red giant as it runs out of fuel, and then simply sputter out, cool off and become a black dwarf-a cindered diamond, really. End of sun. Confronted every day with my death (I think at this time I was nearing 7, and had actually “died” twice) the eventual end of the sun was something of a comfort to me-the sun’s going to die, and so am I is what I used to think. I can’t even describe-even today-what it felt like to find out at 9 (by which time they had always said I’d surely be dead) just what “not yet” would start to come to mean to me, never mind at 13, 15, and at 18 and 20. Mind you, my day starts and ends with a boggling array of pills, and-well, have you ever seen someone in the mall, say, with an oxygen tank or generator? Whenever I see someone like that, especially lately, I have to remind myself that before I die-provided I don’t get hit by a bus, murdered by a jealous husband, or smashed by a toilet seat from outer space-I’ll be toting one of those around myself. In spite of that,I remain the optimist I’ve always been, and wonder how it is I’m going to swim with the thing. :lfao: (See, John? That’s me mocking myself. You should feel flattered!)

I’m still thankful for my life, for every breath I’ve drawn, for each and every day, and begin each and every day with that: saying thank you.

So, to come full circle-who, exactly, do I thank? I could thank my parents for having and raising me, and I do, but they had two other children, adopted a third, and, really, when I say “thank you for my life” I’m really giving thanks for the fact of me-something unique that is more than just the product of the biological coupling of Jeffrey Cuffee and Carol , his wife. I could also thank myself-and I do-for the will to live, and being optimistic and upbeat through it all (in spite of my rather snarky, curmudgeonly online persona-really!) , but that’s still less than the fact of me-in the end, I’m left with God, or the Mystery, or foot-I call him “foot” sometimes, it’s a joke between us…..:lfao: It’s the Creator that I thank, until that day this body breathes its last, and I pass into the Mystery myself.

And, getting back to the OP: he's FOS. Really. And all you atheists can believe- or "know"-whatever you like. Doesn't bother me-heck, it's one more of "ten thousand things" that make life more interesting! :asian:

 

[Jenna]

I am sorry to hear elder999 that you had such a fraught childhood. And but if you believe it has made the man of you that it has then perhaps it was not imposed upon you gratuitously or maliciously by Foot (I think Foot requires due reverence and capitalisation ). Alternatively perhaps this is just the way that you, me and others with a faith rationalise what is merely unfortunate chance or circumstance whose path intersects with their life - I do not know for sure. That your life now, hampered as it is by medical miscreancies (my neologism for the day ), has not angered you wholly away from faith, I think is a testament to the integrity of your faith. Others will say you are a walking disproof of your own belief. I am sure your personal experiences allow for infinite rebuttal should you so desire, without even breaking sweat.

I will say, I always enjoy reading your opinions on these issues because your point of view is singularly faithful and yet refreshingly open. I cannot possibly put argument to that. I have time for all variant theists and atheists alike. And but only when they can accept the alternative worldview as having relevance *to those who espouse it* if not to theirselves. What I do not have much time for is those who regard an opposing worldview as flat out ridiculous and are not afraid to tell you to your face that you are an idiot. And that happens on both sides of the faith coin.

No, I do not have cancer. I used that disease as illustration as it brings its own connotations and is therefore symbolic for many. My health situation is not important and but the point remains the same though; in that post, I was trying to draw out the difference between the necessarily dispassionate format of science and the emotional framework of faith. To that, I am certain you will attest. I was trying to show specifically that it is not only the Creationist lobbies who can directly influence for the worse, those that do not subscribe to their beliefs, and but also that cold hard science can influence for the worse those of us who do not hold scientifically proven fact as the sole foundations for their way of life. Medicines can be rationalised based upon scientific probability of survival. And while we all understand the economics of healthcare, the point is that for those of us who are hospital regulars, our longevity long or short is judged on the basis of that scientific evidence and will never include our strength in faith. Science trumps belief where money is concerned.

I will take my strength in faith over drugs anyways. Perhaps that in itself is foolish I do not care. What I believe is that the body has an infinite capacity to heal itself and but can only be tasked with healing in severe cases when the key of belief is turned in its lock. For some, they can do this (they imagine) without God. That can, I know, lead to a sense of being the ubermensch incarnate. I prefer to see the workings of healing through belief coming courtesy of God.

In reality, my life and my death are nothing more than a set of statistical probabilities ranging from today to twenty years hence. That, as you say, is the same for us all, on our various timelines. And but my faith can counteract my scientific likelihoods. That, I know. The whys and wherefores on the other hand, I do not apprehend. I choose to interpret them as a belief that I am upheld by God, whether or not that is in reality the truth.

If anyone believes otherwise, then that is perfectly fine with me. I am not a persuader. I believe that I am only here to try to live my life as an example. So far, I self-grade a C-. I am still working on it Again I apologise for being not too cogent or rambling or wayward English. Thank you for using my post as a basis for your reply and for replying in such a comprehensive and well-written way.

 

[WC_lun]

I had a childhood similiar to Elder in many ways it seems. Things are still...interesting as an adult. I've seen four people die this year. Two of which were sitting in a chair next to me. There were a few days this year when the docs thought I might not be among the living much longer. Death has been a campanion of mine, though not quite on talking terms yet. I find my faith is pretty much the same as it has always been. I believe what I do, but not because I'm in that situation. Though my faith does give me a bit of comfort. Everyone isn't the same though.

I see many people who are critically ill. I've seen some of those people go from very critical of religion to very vocal followers of thier specific religion. It is amazing what immense pain or the threat of immenent death will do to increase one's belief. Fear is a powerful motivator it seems. Regardless if thier faith is based upon faulty bedrock, it brings them comfort. Who am I to say thier faith isn't real or is just delusional thinking? I really don't care. They recieve comfort from it, so good for them. I think in the end, that is what religious faith is for most people. It is a comfort for the painful knowledge that we are mortal.

 

[Jenna]

I had a childhood similiar to Elder in many ways it seems. Things are still...interesting as an adult. I've seen four people die this year. Two of which were sitting in a chair next to me. There were a few days this year when the docs thought I might not be among the living much longer. Death has been a campanion of mine, though not quite on talking terms yet. I find my faith is pretty much the same as it has always been. I believe what I do, but not because I'm in that situation. Though my faith does give me a bit of comfort. Everyone isn't the same though.

I see many people who are critically ill. I've seen some of those people go from very critical of religion to very vocal followers of thier specific religion. It is amazing what immense pain or the threat of immenent death will do to increase one's belief. Fear is a powerful motivator it seems. Regardless if thier faith is based upon faulty bedrock, it brings them comfort. Who am I to say thier faith isn't real or is just delusional thinking? I really don't care. They recieve comfort from it, so good for them. I think in the end, that is what religious faith is for most people. It is a comfort for the painful knowledge that we are mortal.

What if research on telomerase and prolonging longevity from genetics actually rendered us theoretically immortal. Do you think would we have no need for faith? Would Man become God then?

 

[WC_lun]

What if research on telomerase and prolonging longevity from genetics actually rendered us theoretically immortal. Do you think would we have no need for faith? Would Man become God then?

I do think there would be a lot less that are religious. I can't deny my experience of seeing so many "turn to God" when thier own mortality is shown to them. Would religions end? No, I don't think so. There are those that follow religions and practice faith because it helps them in thier daily lives. There are plenty of men now who believe they are god already, or the direct pipeline to god. I could see once men like these reeching virtual immortality replacing thier own name with various Gods' names. The human race is nothing if not vain and arrogant

 

[Em MacIntosh]

As far as transcending biology or even just artificial enhancement, I don't think hyperintelligence would solve the debate but it would allow for more meaningful discussions about it.