24 technique vs 16 Technique Parker Kenpo

[brianhunter]

I am a little curious at to the history and reason behind some systems going to the 16 tech per belt system as opposed to the 24 per belt. I know the IKKA still promotes the 24, while I believe Brian Duffy does the 16 as well as Mr. C and the IKKO. Tom Kelly also does a 16 but it is a little different then the others I have seen...i.e. he requires short 2 for promotion to orange instead of long 1.
Any comments, feelings, or history is welcome!!!

 

[brianhunter]

Mr. C if your out there I would greatly appreciate your input on this one!!

 

[Rainman]

The number is inconsequential. The order of that number is relevent. It is also imperative that basics are thoroughly explored otherwise the teks will lose some effectiveness incrementally due to level of efficiency.

:asian:

 

[Michael Billings]

Bryan Hawkins' United Kenpo Systems also uses the 16 Technique charts developed by Mr. Duffy. I was one of Mr. Duffy's senior students at the time. He used the Web of knowledge to distribute techniques more evenly through 1st Black, instead of 2nd Brown starting "Black Belt extensions". This also allowed for more even distribution of not just the techniques, but the sets, forms, and freestyle techniques through Black.

It took a very long time, between Yellow Belt and Orange Belt. I started before we had Yellow, but in terms of student retention, that is where we, and Kenpo in general, lost students. You could go around the corner to Joe's Generic Karate Store or Tom's Take-One's-Dough school and have a Brown belt by the time some of our guys got to Orange or Purple. Of course that made it sorta unfair at tournaments as we got to help ourselves to the trophies. (Tournaments being another of Mr. Duffy's fortes at the time.)

The amount of material per belt chart was much more managable for lower belt students. Then increased to 20 techniques per chart for Brown and 1st Black. You got the same place, sometimes in the same time, but it felt better to the students to be able to progress quicker, is how I perceived it.

Another piece of this was "Black Belt Extensions at Black Belt". Some of the extensions were very long ... but fun, and this distinguished the Black Belt club from the Brown Belt brotherhood. No insult to any Brown Belt intended ... we have all been there, in my case a year between each Brown was the requirement, along with teaching hours and tournaments, 5 per belt.

Also the logical layout of the techniques using the Web of Knowledge was a nice breakdown of techniques by type of attack. It ensured you had the techniques when you were learning the forms ... not something I had in the 24 technique charts I came up under, nor in the Chinese Kenpo charts I did prior to that.

Dennis Conatser or Brian Duffy can give you the real deal speil, but that is how I remember it. Along with Mr. Parker's liking it and allowing us to implement it, then other schools following suite. If I err in any of this, I apologize in advance. This is how I remember it, but I was not developing anything - mostly just working on 2nd Black material with Mr. Duffy and Howard Silva during this period.

Yours in Kenpo,
-Michael Billings
UKS - Texas

 

[brianhunter]

that makes alot of sense........I read once where Mr. Duffy had presented it to Mr. Parker and he really liked it but didnt get the work out to all the schools

 

[Klondike93]

At the kenpo school I'm going to the techniques are arranged so that when you learn one the next one is the what if or sister to the previous one.

Example: Having Glancing Salute follow Triggered Salute- one is a straight push the other a cross push.

My instructor thinks that as long as all the techniques are learned by black belt why not try it in this kind of order.


:asian:

 

[Rainman]

It sounds like the WOK is still followed even by grouping pushes together. It is not the best when the order is random. There is a specifity involved with easy to difficult teks.

:asian:

 

[WilliamTLear]

I have to say that Mr. Billings hit the nail on the head when he wrote his post supporting the 16 technique system. I know Mr. Conatser personally and his version of the story is right on par with Mr. Billings account. Ed Parker Jr. has also backed up this accounting of history behind the evolution of the 24 technique system to the 16 technique system.

One of the added benefits that I have seen in studios that utilize this system is not only the retention of students, but also the retention of information by those students. I have travelled to many places on my Kenpo Journey, and quality is always more important that quantity. Besides you learn all the base techniques in the 16 system before black belt anyway (let the black belts struggle with the extensions! **Laughing**

Take Care,
Billy Lear :asian:

 

[Goldendragon7]

Michaels post is 99 percent on target. Lear backs it up. Brian (my good friend) had under taken the task of lowering the number of techniques required (since both of us had studios for over 20 years each - Brian is still going almost 30!) so that our students in our studios could benefit more from a lower technique load...... this was also being asked of Mr. Parker from others around the country as well.

Brian did a sample curriculum ...... Mr. Parker tweaked it... (I was a part of that) and he liked it. We were in process of testing it and if Mr. Parker would not have passed so suddenly...... I believe he would have turned it out to the entire association by 1992.

It is a good curriculum and well set up.

:Asian:

 

[brianhunter]

Thanks Mr. C. Im impressed about how much expertice and knowledge is on this board for free LOL

 

[Goldendragon7]

I only hope to be able to retain a bit of what I read and learn....:asian:

 

[Klondike93]

I only hope to be able to retain a bit of what I read and learn

Sheesh... you've probably forgot more than the rest of us combined will ever know.

:asian:

 

[Goldendragon7]

I can't remember........ :rofl:

:asian:

 

[Michael Billings]

I can't remember remembering?

 

[WilliamTLear]

I'm trying to remember, but I forgot what I was supposed to remember.

 

[GouRonin]

Did you guys start drinking without me?

 

[Ronin]

Sadly, I would be willing to bet that the majority of the people who argue about the 24-16 technique debate will never study long enough for it to make any difference. Most Students that are "interested in kenpo" sadly fade away once they approach adv. green or brown. Thefore only the hardcore guys are left and I dont think they care about what number of techniques they learn per belt. They are just happy to be in a quality martial arts system.

 

[GouRonin]

The name "Ronin" alone almost implies that the guy is intelligent.

Good post!

 

[Klondike93]

Originally posted by GouRonin

The name "Ronin" alone almost implies that the guy is intelligent.

Good post!

Or a complete nut like the Gou dog


:asian:

 

[Roland]

..last time I saw Mr. Planas, he said he liked the 16 count system! That was just this past easter weekend!
Must admit, I did not get a chance to ask him why, but hey, this was without anyone pressing him. I am not even sure why it came up, I do not think we were even debating it. He just turned to us, said he liked the 16, I said,"What?", and he said, "Yeah, I think it works well!"

Who knew?