1800's "Pugilism", is it useful?

[punisher73]

Ironically no. We had this out and his theory is that modern boxing is a result of rule changes and not just the evolution of boxing.

My argument that modern fighting has a consistant theme across rulesets, from bare knucke, MMA, kickboxing, boxing, sanda, kudo. And so rule changes are not really a factor was not enough to convince him.

Showing footage of old timey bare knuckle champions. That were technically pretty raw was not enough to convince him.

Champion bare knuckle fighters training in gloves was not enough to convince him


His counter argument was that I am a poo poo head.

There is this romantic idea that bare knucke boxing is somehow more suited to bare knuckle fighting. But the evidence just doesn't support it.

I had the same idea when I spoke to a friend of mine who went from muay thai in 16oz gloves to muay thai in MMA gloves. I assumed there was some sort of mechanical difference that needed to be adressed. (and by the way he actually is a champion fighter. Holds titles and stuff)

And no not really. You get hit more. That is about it.

At some point i really need to bail up chris haseman and see what he says on it.

So we don't really know if there is use in the old style of bare knuckle as I don't know if anyone who is any good uses that method.

I agree more with Mr. Lawson in this regards for the following reasons:

1) Bigger gloves allows for different guards to cover more areas, such as holding the gloves on the cheeks. Also, protects the hands more which leads to more head punching as opposed to body punching. You said there was no mechanical difference in your friend, just that you got hit more. That is the WHOLE POINT, he is utilizing a style and approach based on larger gloves. If all fighters had to fight with 4 oz. MMA gloves (or the 5 oz gloves Jack Dempsey wore) in boxing you would slowly start to see an evolution of guards and defensive work so you wouldn't keep getting hit more.

2) Ring Size: smaller rings lead to more engagement with the fighters and less moving around and running. This has lead to different styles of boxing based on the ability to move a lot more. This was one of the key factors in the Jack Dempsey v. Gene Tunney fight. Dempsey always fought in a smaller ring which favored his bulldog style of moving in and taking out an opponent. Tunney used a lot more footwork and moving around to avoid that.

3) Neutral corner: Previously, a fighter could stand over the downed fighter and as soon as they started to get up could engage again.

4) Clinching: Now it is a strategy used to smother another fighter or to get the fight back where you want it on a close in fighter because the referee will step in to break the clinch and separate the fighters. Before the rule change, if you clinched up you were eating kicks or getting tossed onto the ground. It was not a "safe zone" for the fighter.

5) Round limits: Top end of a pro fight is 12 rounds. Before the 80's when Ray Mancini killed a man in the ring, it was 15 rounds. Yet, before the 1920's there was no limit to the rounds. This definitely effects how you train and your approach. How many times have you heard the complaint about just boxing to win the rounds and getting a decision and never knocking out a fighter? Old school, the only way to win the fight was to make it so the other guy couldn't continue.

All of these factors influence how boxing is trained and utilized. All of it develops into its own separate strategy. Looking at how it is done now and saying there is a common thread to all of them ignores how they were all implemented from the same rule pool.

Rule set and environment will ALWAYS change how a martial art or combat sport is done and it will always gravitate to maximizing itself in that rule set.

 

[drop bear]

1) Bigger gloves allows for different guards to cover more areas, such as holding the gloves on the cheeks. Also, protects the hands more which leads to more head punching as opposed to body punching. You said there was no mechanical difference in your friend, just that you got hit more. That is the WHOLE POINT, he is utilizing a style and approach based on larger gloves. If all fighters had to fight with 4 oz. MMA gloves (or the 5 oz gloves Jack Dempsey wore) in boxing you would slowly start to see an evolution of guards and defensive work so you wouldn't keep getting hit more.

And how long is that change supposed to take?

Have you seen anybody who makes pugilism work?

 

[punisher73]

And how long is that change supposed to take?

Have you seen anybody who makes pugilism work?

How long? Who knows? If boxing as a sport adopted 4 or 5 oz. gloves tomorrow, then the change would occur quicker than if it is just a gym here or there that starts training that way. It's the nature of the beast. Think about if you only sparred the same small group of people each time in a school. Eventually, you would start to develop strategies to beat those same people. They may or may not be something that can be applied to people universally.

Your second question is too nebulous. How are you defining "pugilism"? Pre-1920's with kicks, hip tosses etc. Dirty boxing, that uses all of the banned techniques like rabbit punches, hammers, hacksaws, and includes the kicks, hip tosses etc? Also, streetfights caught on tape that illustrate those principles? Sparring sessions under old school rules? What are you looking for?

 

[drop bear]

How long? Who knows? If boxing as a sport adopted 4 or 5 oz. gloves tomorrow, then the change would occur quicker than if it is just a gym here or there that starts training that way. It's the nature of the beast. Think about if you only sparred the same small group of people each time in a school. Eventually, you would start to develop strategies to beat those same people. They may or may not be something that can be applied to people universally.

Your second question is too nebulous. How are you defining "pugilism"? Pre-1920's with kicks, hip tosses etc. Dirty boxing, that uses all of the banned techniques like rabbit punches, hammers, hacksaws, and includes the kicks, hip tosses etc? Also, streetfights caught on tape that illustrate those principles? Sparring sessions under old school rules? What are you looking for?

Anybody in either bare knuckle or mma gloves using pugilism to win fights, anywhere?

 

[punisher73]

You can look at any MMA fight and see concepts, principles and techniques being used from pugilism.

You will see grabbing the head to punch or elbow, oblique kicks like Jon Jones uses, you will see the hip toss or cross buttocks throw.

Watch Nick Diaz, not only does he train with modern boxers, he also trains with pugilists and incorporates that into his boxing.

MMA uses whatever works. As fighters are introduced to it and add it to their gameplan, other fighters will also add those tools to their toolbox.

 

[drop bear]

You can look at any MMA fight and see concepts, principles and techniques being used from pugilism.

You will see grabbing the head to punch or elbow, oblique kicks like Jon Jones uses, you will see the hip toss or cross buttocks throw.

Watch Nick Diaz, not only does he train with modern boxers, he also trains with pugilists and incorporates that into his boxing.
MMA uses whatever works. As fighters are introduced to it and add it to their gameplan, other fighters will also add those tools to their toolbox.

Who are the pugilists nick Diaz trains with?

 

[punisher73]

The Pugilist: Nick Diaz's very old school boxing

There is an article comparing the strategies and tactics. TBH I can't find the article again that mentioned that Nick Diaz had trained with pugilists, but I will keep looking for it.

 

[drop bear]

The Pugilist: Nick Diaz's very old school boxing

There is an article comparing the strategies and tactics. TBH I can't find the article again that mentioned that Nick Diaz had trained with pugilists, but I will keep looking for it.

I had a look and couldn't find who. Just some passing references.

 

[drop bear]

I would like to study pugilism just from a historic perspective. There are always elements that are useful I think.

Yeah. Finding some sort of legitimate source would be nice though.

Academic pursuit should still have that practical grounding. Otherwise we get that random guy in the park saying any old stuff to justify his stuff.

 

[punisher73]

Yeah. Finding some sort of legitimate source would be nice though.

Academic pursuit should still have that practical grounding. Otherwise we get that random guy in the park saying any old stuff to justify his stuff.

I agree as well. If you get a chance to review the article, it is a very nice comparision of the old pugilism concepts and strategies that are used by NIck Diaz. Nick Diaz has a very unique style of boxing in MMA. Whether or not he formally trained with a pugilism trainer or intuitively started to do it that way, it makes a valid point about the evolution of combat sports and he they are defined and refined with rules and environment changes.