Why do Westerners train in exotic unrealistic weapons and ignore practical ones like baseball bats?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by Bullsherdog, Jan 5, 2020.

  1. RTKDCMB

    RTKDCMB Senior Master

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    Man, I hope so.
     
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  2. Rat

    Rat 3rd Black Belt

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    It is effective in that, its the basics of using said weapon. also, i dont belive i have detailed MY training regime in this thread. You have added some uneeded and unwarranted personalisation to that point.

    I have also posted video evidence of how easy it is to pick up using a spear/staff like a spear to prove my point on how easy it is and how some weapons are easier to pick up than others.

    No idea where you got that from, i have wrote several times to spar and to use drills agaisnt a partner and to use both reactive and static targets. If you dont have access to one, you dont have access to it and cant use it. Not optimal but you use what you have. So am i in a self deulision when you replied to a non point? (if i am wrong, feel free to quote the specfic statement in the quoted post, and apologies for that)

    i agree (in part), as i have stated and my replies have done beforehand. But, i have stated to SPAR, this is the 8th time. And to use reactive targets and drills with somone. I have stated these things several times now, again how many times do i have to make the point again, and state i agree in parts but never stated anything contary to it.

    I, as i have stated before. Belive you chances to be increased if you pactice with it. thats one of the fundemental points here.



    I think its clear by now, statements from personal expereince are meh to me, especially when i have posted some form of video on how easy it is to pick up some weapons and use them. Some of the points in dispute i didnt make, or have eleborated possibly eambigious points into more clearer terms.

    I am effectively done here, until something more definitive shows up and frankly, this argument isnt really a arguement anymore. if you do find some form of stat etc for weapon training times, i will resume but until then, no.
     
  3. Rat

    Rat 3rd Black Belt

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    i have no idea how flamethrowers even took off for zombie fighting. I get it if they are meant to be infected persons and corpse disposal, not in fighting them. Especially if they are the destroy the brain or remove the head type.

    edit: i dotn think i have seena film use a flame thrower for it in some time.
     
  4. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    Truth!!
     
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  5. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    It may not actually be the basics of using the weapon. It is simply what you have intuitively figured out on your own, and may be effective on some level. That does not mean it is accurate basics as far as anyone with real training might see it. And the term “effective” in this context might simply mean “hazardous to those in your vicinity, whether friend or foe.”

    I think the spear is a good example, and particularly relevant since youve posted some video on its relative simplicity. Compared to some other weapons like the sword, the spear is much easier to learn. It was also historically easier and cheaper to manufacture. Add these points together and it makes sense that it was the weapon of choice for arming the bulk of a medieval army. Cheap and easy to make lots of them, easier for the average recruit to learn = build an army.

    But, these recruits were not just handed a spear and told to figure it out for themselves. They were instructed and they were drilled heavily. I practice the spear in the context of my kung fu. My spear is heavy and real, and of a realistic, military weight and heft. It is a lot of hard work, it wears you out. Drilling for an hour with it is a tough workout, working the basics and the form. Extend that period to a few hours daily, for weeks or months in preparation for an upcoming battle, and you’ve got one hell of a conditioning program.

    And then, these folks used the spear on the battlefield. There was a huge amount of collective experience that went into determining how to best use the spear, based on the results of countless battles and even more countless soldiers who used it. Over time, the training program would be refined and improved based on this experience.

    You don’t get that from simple intuition, even if you figure out a way to safely spar with it with your friends in the back yard.
     
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  6. Rat

    Rat 3rd Black Belt

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    Some elboration needed. I support your inututive statement. But the other point/statement/view i have is: If you get a book written by somone who say does sword fighting, and use that to teach yourself other than whats instictive to you, you will have a better time. And then the content of the book would matter, but sake of argument it is a good book that covers the basics quite well. Or some other form of media made by somone who knows it. that should help bridge the gap a bit.

    And i agree about the spearman statement. I think it would take about a week to get a large amount of people drilled suffciently to at least function in a a battlefield. definately faster than many other types of weapon. Its still note worthy how fast people pick up how to use it 1v1 combat though, at least sufficnetly to defend themselves. Especially against swords or other weapons.

    Addendum: i use book to mean manual/treatise. It exists to relay martial techniques/cocepts etc to the reader.
     
  7. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    One of my favorites is when people will look at a school where the instructors are old and say it's a bad school because those old guys couldn't fight anymore. Completely overlook all of the wisdom and experience they bring to the table.
     
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  8. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    The problem is that you have no communication with the author. You may misunderstand a lot of what he says, take things out of context, or imagine something different than he wrote it. You also won't get all of the nuance that you get in class.

    YouTube and DVDs are often used as supplemental training, they are poor on their own. With videos you can actually see the motions, and they're still vastly inferior to taking lessons. Books are worse than film in this regard, which means they're even worse.
     
  9. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    some things you can learn from books and vids and somethings you cant

    i think the university of you tube is fantastic, but you have to be careful there's a lot of people who just want to sound of, use it as an income source or publicity for there business, some are just buffoons, t5hat know little about the topic but think they do.

    i'm currently teaching myself to repair electronics using you tube, but i'm practising on a fully resistant '' partner'' in this case on broken amps and cd player i buy from the second hand shop for a fiver. there's such a gulf between watching someone extremely skilled do it and doing it yourself, they naturally make it look easy and when you try its not.

    nb ive just got a top of the range technics cd player working and as the problem was the draw not opening a free cd of the kinks
     
  10. _Simon_

    _Simon_ Senior Master

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    XD XD XD
     
  11. _Simon_

    _Simon_ Senior Master

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    Yeah that's an interesting point!

    People often do that to personal trainers too, just because they aren't in the shape we designate they should be in they're useless. Never mind their incredible coaching knowledge and experience.

    I do get it to some degree, many say if they were truly "passionate" about it they would still train, but that view can get a little extreme though.
     
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  12. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    And the older you are, the less your body can handle; and the more likely you've sustained an illness or injury that holds you back as well.
     
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  13. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    yes anyone can pick up a spear and have a '' stab at using it or a bat and have a go at ''battery''

    if this will be successful or not depends greatly on circumstances and the physical and mental abilities of the other guy.

    most people will back off if you start waving a weapon about, some will not, some will produce a better weapon that they are much better with or just take your bat off you and hit you with it. taking a bat to a fist fight is a really bad idea if the other guy ends up with the bat

    many years ago i got involved in a road rage incident where someone tried to knock me off my bike, a caught up with him at the traffic lights, he jumped out , i jumped off to met him half way, he had a kitchen knife, i backed off, he looked smug and shouted trash talk after me. to him the situation was clear produce an 8 inch knife and people dont want to fight you,

    my perspective was somewhat different, i was greatly peeve by the events, returned to my bike and went back towards him carrying a claw hammer,, which i was more than prepared to use to cause him serious injury. suddenly the whole physiology changed, he was in complete shock that his deadly weapon tactic had just resulted in the situation being raised into a fight to the death and he is backing off, jumped in his car and shot off, with my claw hammer stuck through his back window
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2020
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  14. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    sword fighting is a very real and current sport, i have severe doubt that any one who has ever picked up a sword has reach competent level of ability from book reading rather than a high level of expert coaching, if you know different please e4xplain
     
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  15. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    traditional medicine has severe limitations
    classic cars are terrible as means of transport, if being a means of transport include getting you were you want to go in a timely fashion, a i ran classic cars for a number of years because i could, ie i had the abilities, tools and a free Saturday every week to keep them going, even then a round trip to the coast was full of suspense of if we were going home on an AA truck or not

    old comic books have rarity, rather then intrinsic value in their favour and nothing else and as for old money ????

    you need to ask yourself what your doing, running a museum or having something of use, these two things often conflict
     
  16. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    So does modern medicine.. I'm not saying that traditional medicine solves everything but some of it works better than some modern medicine. If you look up how some of the modern medicine is developed you will see that they often look at traditional medicine that works. This is what I'm talking referring to.

    "Historically, medicines were administered in the form of herbal concoctions, and many traditional medicines continue to be taken this way. As science advanced, chemists were able to extract the active ingredients from natural sources to make more potent medicines. For example, aspirin (acetylsalicylic acid) was discovered from the willow tree, the bark of which was used in traditional herbal remedies []." Source: Where does medicine come from? - Science in the News
    Fort those who don't want to read

    We often screw up when we make it "more Potent" and forget to make it "balanced" which is why we have the 15 side-effects that may cause a problem worse than the one that is being treated. Modern medicine focuses on purity and not balance, while helpful it's comes with it's limitations as well.

    Here's another mention of modern medicine development.
    Don't get me wrong some traditional medicine will kill a person or make a person worse, but I'm not referring to those things.

    Classic cars are terrible as means of transport - this may be true but the value in these cars isn't in the transportation but the craftsmanship and the financial value. For example, a 1968 Ford Shelby GT500 Many people had one and got rid of it for a "better car". New cars devalue the moment you drive it off the lot. The 1968 Ford Shelby has increased in value. In 1968, this car sold for around $4,500 U.S dollars. Now this car is worth more than $100,000 and in fair condition it's worth around $82.000. So while my Mazda 3 Skyactive car fully loaded is going to perform better, It's now less the $24,000 price tag of when I bought it new. The fair market value for my car is. now $9,000 -$11,000

    This is still value even if it's based on rarity. Which I would question because there's old comic books that are rare and not valuable, so I don't think it's a "rarity only" value appraisal.

    Old money often becomes more valuable, Sometimes it's the make up of the coin and the rarity that pushes the value. For example, a 1982 Lincoln Cent with no mint date has sold for as much as $80,000 If the purpose of money is to be of value, then this penny exceeded far beyond it's face value.

    I see it more as recognizing value beyond it's intended original use. Or at the least recognizing when one value has changed and another value has begun.

    Martial Arts systems value as a self-defense tool is very small when compared to the benefits of having a modern gun on hand. But even so there is still value in the systems. While very few people can actually fight with it, western doctors are now finding value in it for their patients health. Even though it's old and not Modern.

    I guess the point I'm making is simply just because it's old doesn't mean it's outdated or useless. While it may be outdated in one area. It may be significantly important in another. I wouldn't bring a spear to a gun fight. But the training of the spear is a great exercise if someone is looking for a good way to learn something that ways actually used in war and stay in shape (provided that they aren't using the fake modern weapons that flap around)
     
  17. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    old cars re bad, they were badly engineered and badly designed, that they are worth money now is to do with nostalgia and rarity, car that were made in their many millions dont get any sort of value at all till theres only a few left, then they become desirably, simply because they are exclusive.

    bazeley car that were really really bad so that only a very few stupid people bought them become far more valuable sooner that betters cars that sold far more

    theres are motorbikes i owned in the 70s and 80s that were really bad at being motorbikes, that people are paying far more for now than you can by an infinitely superior modern bike for brand new. these people are very very stupid

    the kawasaki 500s from the early 70s sold in reasonable numbers, but were so dangerous to ride fast and impossible to ride slowly that only a hand full lasted the decade, these death traps are now worth a small fortune
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2020
  18. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    traditional medicine doesn't work better than modern medicine not for anything ever, it may be probably wont be almost as good, because medicines derived from traditional cures have been refined to work better

    aspirin was refined in the 1800s, i'm not even sure it counts as modern medicine, but it was one of the biggest breakthroughs in effective pain relive and fever control, god knows how much tree bark you had to inbide to get the same effect as one small pill. and if you've got a headache going in search of a willow tree is a bit inconvenient

    is medicine over prescribed ? yes, but that's not the fault of the medicine thats the doctors and societies perception that there's a pill for everything and every thing needs a pill

    most people will just get better on their own most of the time, if they take traditional, modern or no medicine at all, but if ive got septicemia you can keep your traditional cures, im taking the antibiotics
     
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  19. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    Who knows. Maybe it work just as well. I've never taken tree bark to relieve a headache. A pill would have a longer shelf life than and you could increase the strength of it by increasing the purity of it. But that doesn't mean the tree bark didn't get rid of the headache in the amounts used in the traditional amount.

    For example. If I have an upset stomach I eat ginger or make a tea for it. It provides the same relief for my upset stomach and in many cases works better than the Tums and Zantac. For acid reflux, (if I eat too late and then go to sleep), I just drink a glass of milk before going to bed. 2 examples of where I didn't have to Purify or super-dose the serving size of what I was taking to fix my stomach issues.

    You know what I don't get from Milk or Ginger? These things which are side effects from Zantac:
    • constipation,
    • diarrhea,
    • fatigue,
    • headache (may be severe),
    • drowsiness,
    • dizziness,
    • sleep problems (insomnia),
    • decreased sex drive,
    • impotence,
    • difficulty having an orgasm,
    • muscle pain,
    • stomach pain,
    • nausea,
    • vomiting,
    • constipation,
    • or swollen or tender breasts (in men)
    At the most I would be at risk for Diarrhea only because I'm lactose intolerant. But since my body is strange, milk only bothers me during certain parts of the day. My stomach doesn't like it in the morning, but can handle it in the evening.

    Below are the benefits of Ginger
    • Reducing gas and improving digestion
    • Relieving nausea
    • Easing a cold or the flu
    • Relieving pain
    • Reducing inflammation
    • Supporting cardiovascular health
    Process Ginger how ever does have risk as well. By processed I mean converting it into a powder form so you can increase the concentration of it. I don't use ginger this way, because for me I try to strike a balance whenever possible. Sort of the "too much of a good thing.." logic. These are side effects that you'll get when you eat too much. I would say if you took a big bite out of a ginger root like an apple you would probably experience some of these things.
    • increased bleeding tendency
    • abdominal discomfort
    • cardiac arrhythmias (if overdosed)
    • central nervous system depression (if overdosed)
    • dermatitis (with topical use)
    • diarrhea
    • heartburn
    • mouth or throat irritation
    Does Ginger work for everyone? Of course not, but for me. Ginger is better than many of the modern medicines for my stomach / digestive issues. It also works faster and I can cook with it. I'm pretty sure cooking with Zantac is frowned upon lol.

    The only difference is that the Pill is going to cost me $12.35 and is more convenient than carrying ginger root around and my Ginger is free as I grow it. Companies can make more money selling the pill as medicine and they can increase the dose even if there may be no need to.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2020
  20. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    but this is the problem, you dont need medicine for an upset tummy at all, unless its dysentery and then your ginger tea will have no effect on your impending demise

    saying your cure is better than another cure when neither are cures they just relives symptoms till it gets better on its own is a pointless exercise.

    there a simple logic tree, am i going to die, NO you dont need medicine, do i want to relive symptoms YES take medicine, do i really want to relive symptoms yes take modern medicine, if not just ask your grandmother what they used to do in the olden days and hope its not saying spells over chicken feet

    AM i going to die YES, for gods sake dont take that herbal rubbish or you will die anyway123
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2020
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