Where did the real Karate go?

[RRouuselot]

But given this, if any is to be taken as inconsistancies, can there be any "real" Karate?

Your war cry “can there be any "real" Karate?” is getting old.
Maybe instead of make such troll like comments you could supply that there ISN'T any real Karate left.




Fact: Chinese Chuan fa was taught on Okinawa

Fact: Okinawa had an unarmed form of fighting called “te”

Fact: The two arts were combined over the years to form karate

Fact: The kata that exist in Okinawa in most styles do NOT exist in China, not counting Goju and Uechi kata of course.



If you compare the above to science:

2 parts hydrogen and one part water when combined make water.

Chuan fa was combined with Okinawa Te and made karate.
2 separate entities combined to make one new entity.

 

[47MartialMan]

Given this description of “real”, and using Kaith Rustaz description per; To me, "American Karate" is like saying "Japanese Kung Fu" or "Russian Tai Chi". It's just not "right". Then, what is to be said of Brazilian Ju Jitsu? Is it less “real” with such a prefix? And given it is not practiced in Japan? (No controversy intended for Kaith Rustaz, he was stating his opinion.)



And what of a school, who has lineage, but the instructor decides to teach “flash”, because it is what the general youth public is looking for. And given this, has to be done to bring in recognition and membership. Thus, this instructor may teach “real” methods after a certain level. Is he less of a “Real Karate” instructor by changing the structure a little to accommodate?

Can I dare say there isn't any "Real Karate" left? Would anyone?

 

[RRouuselot]

Given this description of “real”, and using Kaith Rustaz description per; To me, "American Karate" is like saying "Japanese Kung Fu" or "Russian Tai Chi". It's just not "right". Then, what is to be said of Brazilian Ju Jitsu? Is it less “real” with such a prefix?
And given it is not practiced in Japan? (No controversy intended for Kaith Rustaz, he was stating his opinion.)

You need to get your facts straight.....
It is taught in Japan and very popular to boot.

 

[evenflow1121]

And what of a school, who has lineage, but the instructor decides to teach “flash”, because it is what the general youth public is looking for. And given this, has to be done to bring in recognition and membership. Thus, this instructor may teach “real” methods after a certain level. Is he less of a “Real Karate” instructor by changing the structure a little to accommodate?

I guess it depends on how far he is willing to go, how much he alters the system. You know there is quite a market for the flashy styles out there, but the ultimate issue really depends on the customer. Personally, I think 'flashy' is worthless, but there are people out there that find it valuable, they love tournaments, and trophies and what not, to each his own. I do however believe, that the style does becomes less authentic, thus less realistic, once you begin to deviate from it and start to add all these flips and music and crap you see added in today for tournament's sake of competition.

 

[47MartialMan]

You need to get your facts straight.....
It is taught in Japan and very popular to boot.

No no no, I am saying that "Brazilian Ju Jitsu" is not taught in Japan. Does this make it less "real"

 

[47MartialMan]

I guess it depends on how far he is willing to go, how much he alters the system. You know there is quite a market for the flashy styles out there, but the ultimate issue really depends on the customer. Personally, I think 'flashy' is worthless, but there are people out there that find it valuable, they love tournaments, and trophies and what not, to each his own. I do however believe, that the style does becomes less authentic, thus less realistic, once you begin to deviate from it and start to add all these flips and music and crap you see added in today for tournament's sake of competition.

I have to somewhat agree that "flashy" may seem less realistic. Per given it in comparison with actual combat? (I have seen a lot of katas from tradtionalists that do not seem so combat-ready) But, perhaps someone had started a school based on a new system, can they be less authentic? Given any art, upon its development, be considered as authentic, why can't a flashy one, upon its development, that desires this way, be so?

Why can't someone enjoy martial arts a a competitive sport like anything else? And, speaking to some of these competition martial artists, some are fully aware that their performance are not for combat. But does this make it less "real" for them?

It is like a old timer that shakes his head upon looking at a muscle car and remember the cars of the 20's, 30's, 40's, whatever. And imagine the people before him looking out his generation and shaking their heads.

 

[RRouuselot]

No no no, I am saying that "Brazilian Ju Jitsu" is not taught in Japan. Does this make it less "real"

Again I say get your facts straight......."Brazilian Jujutsu" IS taught in Japan

 

[47MartialMan]

Ok, I stand corrected, but is it less "real" than any other there given its affix name or origin?

 

[Jumper53]

Due to a small word in the title of this thread, it has gone way off topic, if there is a dictionary and grammer forum we should move it there.

The topics of "real" and "authentic" has taken too much away from the very interesting start of this thread. We should be replacing the word "real" with the word "Martial" and the word "fake" with the word "entertainment". None of us can prove that our style is authentic, but some of us can prove that our style has Martial Application.

The problem before us is that in many modern ternaments, techniques with Martial applications are loosing out to athletic performances meant to entertain the untrained crowd. The only thing I see we can do is keep true to ourselves, teach the students who follow us Martial techniques, do Kata with Martial applications, use weapons wood/steel colored or painted black, and wear plain uniforms.

The best we can hope for is that the free market system keeps the niche for people who want to learn Martial techniques. If there are enough of us we can have our own niche of tournaments where the judges are not impressed by flash. I doubt the untrained public looking for entertainment will come watch but we are not doing this for the spectators anyway.

If we want to keep the Martial in Martial Arts we need to use our vote in the free market system. Support tournaments that impress you and avoid the ones that give trophies for the best coreography. And occasionally grab a member of the untrained public to educate them on the difference between a martial technique and gymnastics move.

Side Note: the athletic body needed to perform the flashy moves is a Martial asset. A back flip, jump hurricane split kick, spin kick, round off landing in the splits combination will rarely come up in a fight. But students should be taught that the ability to do a back flip, jump hurricane split kick, spin kick, round off landing in the splits combination, will make them better at cross-kicking the opponents knee. I think that many of the Asian Masters knew a lot about the realities of marketing themselves, they showed off the flash stuff to the public, but kept the secrets of Martial Techniques inside the Dojo.

:asian:

 

[RRouuselot]

Ok, I stand corrected, but is it less "real" than any other there given its affix name or origin?

To be honest I don't see much difference between it's techniques and the many "Japanese" styles of Jujutsu.
Your logic of thinking calling an art by a different name some how makes it less "real" is flawed.
I could call the art I teach "Billy Bob's Barroom Ryu" and it would still be just as effective as it is now.
The knuckle heads that claim they invented a better mouse trap by taking the best from each art they "briefly" studied (and are usually pretty unskilled at) and sticking a new name on it could be considered less than "real".

 

[47MartialMan]

1.) To be honest I don't see much difference between it's techniques and the many "Japanese" styles of Jujutsu.

2.) Your logic of thinking calling an art by a different name some how makes it less "real" is flawed.

3.) I could call the art I teach "Billy Bob's Barroom Ryu" and it would still be just as effective as it is now.

4.) The knuckle heads that claim they invented a better mouse trap by taking the best from each art they "briefly" studied (and are usually pretty unskilled at) and sticking a new name on it could be considered less than "real".

1.) Yeah, you should know-you know JuJitsu?

2.) As if, why label something Brazilian, or other country? And, is the Brazilian version wdiely accepted there as the "homeland". Some go as far as to say that it is "better".

3.) So you are relating effectiveness with "real"?

4.) In such that case I won't call them a knuckle head, but in their own mnd they are real.

 

[47MartialMan]

Due to a small word in the title of this thread, it has gone way off topic, if there is a dictionary and grammer forum we should move it there.

The topics of "real" and "authentic" has taken too much away from the very interesting start of this thread. We should be replacing the word "real" with the word "Martial" and the word "fake" with the word "entertainment". None of us can prove that our style is authentic, but some of us can prove that our style has Martial Application.

The problem before us is that in many modern ternaments, techniques with Martial applications are loosing out to athletic performances meant to entertain the untrained crowd. The only thing I see we can do is keep true to ourselves, teach the students who follow us Martial techniques, do Kata with Martial applications, use weapons wood/steel colored or painted black, and wear plain uniforms.

The best we can hope for is that the free market system keeps the niche for people who want to learn Martial techniques. If there are enough of us we can have our own niche of tournaments where the judges are not impressed by flash. I doubt the untrained public looking for entertainment will come watch but we are not doing this for the spectators anyway.

If we want to keep the Martial in Martial Arts we need to use our vote in the free market system. Support tournaments that impress you and avoid the ones that give trophies for the best coreography. And occasionally grab a member of the untrained public to educate them on the difference between a martial technique and gymnastics move.

Side Note: the athletic body needed to perform the flashy moves is a Martial asset. A back flip, jump hurricane split kick, spin kick, round off landing in the splits combination will rarely come up in a fight. But students should be taught that the ability to do a back flip, jump hurricane split kick, spin kick, round off landing in the splits combination, will make them better at cross-kicking the opponents knee. I think that many of the Asian Masters knew a lot about the realities of marketing themselves, they showed off the flash stuff to the public, but kept the secrets of Martial Techniques inside the Dojo.

:asian:

This is the best I have read in this thread.

Perhaps, I can not state much more than this in this thread. Good writing and composition. :asian::asian::asian::asian::asian:...(Instead of 5 Stars)

 

[RRouuselot]

1.) Yeah, you should know-you know JuJitsu?

2.) As if, why label something Brazilian, or other country? And, is the Brazilian version wdiely accepted there as the "homeland". Some go as far as to say that it is "better".

1) Don't I?
2) Some people think in a childish way.

 

[47MartialMan]

1) Don't I?
2) Some people think in a childish way.

:erg::erg::erg::erg::erg:

 

[searcher]

Yes, I am his student.
He is from Okinawa and lives in Independance, Missouri.
His first dojo in the US was about just down the road from my house about 20 minutes away.

Thanks for the heads-up. I think this will allow me to better understand your position and how to relate to your posts. It gives me a good understanding of where your info comes from.

 

[evenflow1121]

4.) The knuckle heads that claim they invented a better mouse trap by taking the best from each art they "briefly" studied (and are usually pretty unskilled at) and sticking a new name on it could be considered less than "real".


I have to agree with this, reminds me a few years ago I was reading this martial art magazine and it had an article on what they referred to as Black Belt Collectors. I am assuming you are referring to the guys that go out get a black belt, move to the next system do the same, and then claim they have incorporated the most effective pieces of each system into the one they have created. As if that could ever be accomplished.

 

[47MartialMan]

4.) The knuckle heads that claim they invented a better mouse trap by taking the best from each art they "briefly" studied (and are usually pretty unskilled at) and sticking a new name on it could be considered less than "real".


I have to agree with this, reminds me a few years ago I was reading this martial art magazine and it had an article on what they referred to as Black Belt Collectors. I am assuming you are referring to the guys that go out get a black belt, move to the next system do the same, and then claim they have incorporated the most effective pieces of each system into the one they have created. As if that could ever be accomplished.

Hasn't it been from past eras per every martial art to absorbed fro other arts and areas of study? Hasn't any martial art been a "melting pot". Less the belt of course.

So a mixture of arts, witihn a decent time frame is "less real"?

Take for example-like Kajukenbo. No offense to Kajukenboists.

I did enjoy reading Jumper53, last post in this thread.

 

[evenflow1121]

Hasn't it been from past eras per every martial art to absorbed fro other arts and areas of study? Hasn't any martial art been a "melting pot". Less the belt of course.

So a mixture of arts, witihn a decent time frame is "less real"?

Take for example-like Kajukenbo. No offense to Kajukenboists.

I did enjoy reading Jumper53, last post in this thread.

I dont see anything wrong with a person well knowledged in two systems for example, incorporating what he or she believes works for them, but there are individuals out there that spend their lives collecting black belts, they recieve shodans and think that they are the outmost authority on a particular system. Then they go out believing or convicing themselves that they have learned all there is to know in the system and decide to incorporate what they have learned (usually 3-4 years worth) into their own. My point is that a lot of individuals spend a life time devoted to one particular matial art so atleast in that system most are well rounded vs the guy who keeps hopping around from system to system everytime they recieve a black belt and then decides to start his own thing claiming he is giving you the best of all worlds package, thus, his post reminded me of something I had read way back when in Black Belt Magazine of Inside Kung fu (I dont remember was almost 10 years ago). In any event, the article was devoted to individuals who run around collecting shodans and start their own systems incorporating what they had learned in several styles but up to shodan, the problem was they would come across like if they were experts in multiple systems.
A mixture or ma's from within a descent time frame is not less real, I dont think that there is one ma out there that can be considered pure, but his line did catch my attention, because in the recent years I have seen quite a few schools sprout out where the head instructor had like 5 different shodans, and decided to create his own thing. I dont have a problem with MMA's Kenpo is an MMA in many ways, its a mix of a few things, so are many other great styles, his post just took me back to that particular article I read many years ago, something I agree with.

 

[47MartialMan]

evenflow1121,

Point well made. Very nicely put. Subtle, but still direct.

So, IYHO, a guy whom his born in 1976, studies an art in 1996. Trains in it til the year 2000. Receives a Black Belt (which on it is printed that he is a Assistant Instructor and cannot award a black belt rank to others) in 2001. In 2003, creates his own style and calls himself Sensei.

So will this classify as:
......they go out believing or convicing themselves that they have learned all there is to know in the system and decide to incorporate what they have learned (usually 3-4 years worth) into their own.

Thus, in hiw own mind, he is training "real"?

 

[evenflow1121]

If he truly believes it then its real, at least to him. There is no such thing as reality it is a human made word. My reality and your reality may be and I am probably taking a good guess that at least at some point will be quite different from each other. Thus, reality is as real as just about any other word created by man, it is in the eye of the beholder.