Where did the real Karate go?

[BlackCatBonz]

when someone reaches shodan......its kind of like graduating grammar school. youve been given the basics to go on learning how to apply them. if you never get beyond this level and move onto the next art to collect another shodan rank, you're again getting a group of basics without advanced insight.
while i would agree that practicing on your own will increase your abilities, the fact that you are not receiving instruction from a qualified teacher in the advanced application and concepts, you are missing the majority of an art and operating under the assumption that your rank represents advanced knowledge.

 

[47MartialMan]

when someone reaches shodan......its kind of like graduating grammar school. youve been given the basics to go on learning how to apply them. if you never get beyond this level and move onto the next art to collect another shodan rank, you're again getting a group of basics without advanced insight.
while i would agree that practicing on your own will increase your abilities, the fact that you are not receiving instruction from a qualified teacher in the advanced application and concepts, you are missing the majority of an art and operating under the assumption that your rank represents advanced knowledge.

I see, but say that someone studies 5 years in one art. Another 5 years in yet another art. Then another 5 years in another. Another 5 years in another. One-more- 5 years in a 5th art, that is a total of 25 years. Can that not account for advanced knoweldge from combined study?

Where it may seem strange that say, some had collected, say 2-Dan, in each, multiply that by 5 (different arts) coming up with the number-10. Claiming they are the 10th dan on their "newly developed art", can this be so?

Not being silly, just pondering some ways people may think.

 

[Ippon Ken]

Just adding another 2 cents to my earlier 2. (Thats what, 5 cents?)

I'm an Arnis practitioner. The founder of my art, Remy Presas had a background in Karate, Shotokan I believe. The forms we do in my system are modified Shotokan forms. At one point in time, the art was described as "Filipino Karate". So, am I doing Karate?

In my opinion, no. I'm doing Modern Arnis, which has some similarities and influences that are Karate, but it isn't Karate. I see Karate as a Japanese art. My opinions have been effected by the information I've read here and elsewhere. I wouldn't pick up an English broadsword and think I'm doing Kendo and more than I would pick up a Katana and think I was fencing. To me, specific terms apply to specific things...with a few exceptions.

I believe one can train with intensity, honesty and 'fire', but that is more dependant on the practitioner, than the art, IMO.

To me, "American Karate" is like saying "Japanese Kung Fu" or "Russian Tai Chi". It's just not "right".

I am part Filipino and lived in the Philipppines for ~7 years. While there I searched for a good MA to train in. I looked at every school and art imaginable, finally deciding on one that a combo of traditional and modern fighting methodology. It was a Shorin Ryu Shorinkan school. I must have visisted 3 Muay Thai gyms, 5 Escrima/Arnis/Kali schools, two Judo dojo, Okinawan Goju Ryu, Hung Gar, Kajukenbo, Boxing, Kickboxing etc. I picked Shorin Ryu because it looked tough and realistic without being too harmful for a growing teen.

What I did notice about the escrima guys was that what they were doing looked like good Okinawan karate, fencing, JJ, boxing and silat mixed. It looked a lot like more hunched shouldered Shorin Ryu fighting. Obviously, even Presas' technique was Shotokan influenced, but his ability to adapt his fighting style to his indigenous artform led to what looked like Shorin Ryu philosophy and mtethodology with some wider circles thrown in. He reivented the wheel.

I can tell you that the Filipinos kinda' laugh at Escrima and tend to gravitiate towards kickboxing, good karate, kickboxing and now MMAs. Escrima is seen as baduy, or "low-class", and without much merit beyond it being used to sneak up on Japanese in the 2nd WW and attacking them with guerilla tactics and bolos (small machetes). I don't know why there is this fascination for FMAs over good TOMAs here, but the Filipinos who know better tend to gravitate towards more realistic stuff, the stuff that has proven itself to work against thugs and the like.

All the good karate has gone the way of all the good MAs. I don't think there was any here, for the most part, EVER. Like anything else the exemplary models are few and far between and in the USA you definitely won't find a good dojo in most strip-mall McDojos or Kid's Karate schools. The same can probably be said about Japan and other industrialized countries. Of course there might be exceptions or will be exceptions but not right now.

 

[arnisador]

To be honest I don't see much difference between it's techniques and the many "Japanese" styles of Jujutsu.

Yeah, much of BJJ is found in Judo, but is less emphasized there nowadays.

 

[evenflow1121]

To me, "American Karate" is like saying "Japanese Kung Fu" or "Russian Tai Chi". It's just not "right".

You are right, well I agree with you, but its just that 'Karate' has become synonymous with the terms martial arts. There was a time where if you were to look at your phone book to find martial arts schools, in many cities, they would be listed under "KARATE", irrespective of it being kung fu, or what not.

 

[The Kai]

To me, "American Karate" is like saying "Japanese Kung Fu" or "Russian Tai Chi". It's just not "right".

You are right, well I agree with you, but its just that 'Karate' has become synonymous with the terms martial arts. There was a time where if you were to look at your phone book to find martial arts schools, in many cities, they would be listed under "KARATE", irrespective of it being kung fu, or what not.

Is'nt Kempo another way of saying Chan Fa, which is of course the Chinese art of the fist. So has the renaming not been done before? I suppose we couls stick with the strict translation and tell people we are going to the empty hand school or the empty hand tournament, but that a is tad "clumsy".

Ed Parker seemed to be fine using american kenpo, of course he did not waffle using japanese terms and titles, tho he respected (and was respected) the chinese community he was'nt afraid to say -this is an american art-

 

[clfsean]

Is'nt Kempo another way of saying Chan Fa, which is of course the Chinese art of the fist. So has the renaming not been done before? I suppose we couls stick with the strict translation and tell people we are going to the empty hand school or the empty hand tournament, but that a is tad "clumsy".

Ed Parker seemed to be fine using american kenpo, of course he did not waffle using japanese terms and titles, tho he respected (and was respected) the chinese community he was'nt afraid to say -this is an american art-

Kempo is Okinawan (Hogen.... I think) for quan fa.

That's why Parker had the respect he did. He didn't call it what it wasn't. He called it what it was. More people should/could look & learn from that.

 

[47MartialMan]

Is'nt Kempo another way of saying Chan Fa, which is of course the Chinese art of the fist. So has the renaming not been done before?

Quan fa, as in some translations, pending on which Chinese Dialect (the have many) means "fist technique"

It was thought by some scholars to be the true wording for a Chinese Martial Art and not Gung Fu (which is a misnomer now used/replacing Chuan Fa for reference sake)

In some Chinese arts, there are "family" arts, that have the family name, with a reference to it being a art. For example, Li Gah (Ga/Gar) Kuen (Kuyhn/Kune) simply meaning "Li Family Fist".

So many outside "old traditonal" Chinese martial arts will use the term Gung Fu. Whereas some "old traditonal" Chinese purists (getting fewer per passing decades) will use the term Chuan Fa.

 

[clfsean]

Whereas some "old traditonal" Chinese purists (getting fewer per passing decades) will use the term Chuan Fa.

Really??? So my sifu, my sigung... the people I met & trained with in mainland China & from mainland China weren't "old traditional purists" by not using a term???

I give... :idunno:

 

[47MartialMan]

Really??? So my sifu, my sigung... the people I met & trained with in mainland China & from mainland China weren't "old traditional purists" by not using a term???

I give... :idunno:

I did state "some".....I do not inmply those that do not re less important.

 

[kishoto]

real karate is still there but not at most tournaments. tournaments today have become a sporting compitition not a training tool.

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

real karate is still there but not at most tournaments. tournaments today have become a sporting compitition not a training tool.

I kind of agree with you... Mirakian sensei from Meibukan Goju described his experiences here http://www.geocities.com/hpchan8/amintvw.html and he stated that in Okinawa at the time he trained (1950s) there was very little free sparring if any, almost no competition and lots of basic techniques... they do only basic techniques and kata for years before learning sparring.

 

[jbclinic]

i agree, what happened to real martial arts? fact of the matter is that in america in oder to continue martial progress"pay for the info/trianing" we must compensate. i would love to see the actual wieghted weapons used in performances, which the artist,then would under what breath control is and find that there is more than just looking good

 

[JAMJTX]

The degradation of karate began a long time ago in the early 1900's when it was watered down and introduced to the Okinawa schools and taught to children for physical education. Once the goal became popluarization and internationalization, the fate of karate was sealed.

If you want an art to spread around the world and get as many people as you can to stay in it for a lifetime, it has to be fun and easy with little to no risk of injury.

There are still some people in the U.S. who teach "real karate". But it is unlikely that you wil lfind them teaching in public places. It takes too much money to rent a suitable dojo so classes have to be slick, watered down and commercialized for economic reasons - unless you can find a few people willing to pay $2,000/month for class. If you teach at other places, you have to water it down for insurance reasons - there will always be things that you are not allowed to do/teach. I fyo are etaching at the Y or someplace and you have 3 students because 98% keep quitting in the first 30 days, then they will cancel the class and put in something that will get 30 people involved - regardless of what it is.

"real karate" is something that there just is not enough interest in to make it commercially viable. Even those instructors who came here from Japan/Okinawa and the early pioneers never taught here as they were taught there.

 

[Explorer]

Hi guys,

The real karate is still out there ... moreso because so many of you are looking for it. Keep it up, hold yourself to a high standard. And when you're in a position to do so, give back by being the kind of teacher you always wanted and needed.

Over the past few years we've been working with the Kusho Jitsu Kenkukai founded by Chris Thomas (he writes the pressure point books with George Dillman). I've been very happy with the way bunkai and oyo are used to help each martial artist develop kata interpretations that work for self-defense purposes. In this way each student develops a personal art that functions for them on every level.

We attend seminars based around this kind of thinking instead of tournaments and have found them very beneficial.

 

[TimoS]

The real karate is still out there ...

Heh! One of my friends would go ballistic if he saw Dillman and real karate being used in the same message

 

[Explorer]

I was quite a skeptic too. Until I attended a seminar he was teaching. I was extremely surprised to run into my old friend, Chris Thomas, and began talking and working with him.

I told him about my skepticisim and his response intrigued me ... he said ... "It's good to be skeptical. Don't take my word for it. Train with me and see for yourself. If, in the end you find no value in what we teach, feel free to discard the training."

The past 5 years have been very interesting. Much of my skepticisim is now gone as I see the concepts working. I'm not always a fan of the techniques they use to display a concept ... but the concepts have, so far, proven themselves to me.

I've been involved in martial arts since 1969 ... I've seen a lot of stuff. I really like the way Master Thomas teaches ... more like a college class than an indoctrination. His mind is open and felxible and he's unafraid of skepticism. I like that.

I call what he teaches 'Classical Martial Arts' as opposed to Traditional. Of course, it's perfectly fine for someone to train in a way they are convinced is useful and it's uncharitable to treat them harshly just because they hold a different view.

 

[pstarr]

I think it's time for the traditional martial arts people to get together and make some noise. Conduct our own events (even if they're small at the outset) and let our opinions be heard...
For too long we've stayed in the background with our hands in our pockets (or wherever) and taken a "live and let live" attitude. What we're seeing now is the result of our failure to stand up and speak out.

 

[CTKempo Todd]

Over the past several years I have seen real Karate replaced with acrobatics, loud screaming, (not to be confused with kiai) bad sportsmanship, arrogant instructors or coaches and deplorable conduct by parents.

The weapons forms have become extremely flashy. Real weapons have been replaced with garbage. The Bo Staff replaced with giant super light weight tooth picks. Chinese Swords replaced with flexible tin of some sort.

No matter how good you are with the weapon it’s the back flips and other non related theatrics that gets the win.
My concern is that people cannot separate showmanship from real defensive techniques. I have seen self defense demonstrations that would get you killed if you tried that crap on the streets. When entering into a self defense category of a tournament, the legitimate self defense will always lose to the theatrical stuff. Will we ever return to the real deal again?

"Bring n the barf bags."

I agree....

The screaming belongs somewhere else..There is a difference between a Kiai and sitting there for 10 seconds trying to audition for a horror movie sound byte.
The last tournament I went to there was a 14 year old girl (2nd or 3rd dan, can't remember) who would complete a move and where a Kiai would go, she'd sit there and wail a scream that would break a window (of course she had her eyes closed the entire time)..Yes guessed it 1st place..

Regarding the gymnastics..YES IT IS GYMNASTICS!!! not martial arts..While I agree that it is incredibley athletic (so is the WWE), it is not what we are taught in a martial arts school..
My guess is most of these moves are being learned in a gymnastics school and not at a martial arts school.

The most gymnastic-like styles are the Chinese kung-fu/wushu systems and I would not be surprised if those style representations in these big tournaments we see on TV are in the minority (at least for hand forms anyway)

 

[thescottishdude]

my old karate class was very good and the only complaint it had was that it didn't teach weapons. not just that class but the whole federation!!!