Where did the real Karate go?

[The Prof]

Over the past several years I have seen real Karate replaced with acrobatics, loud screaming, (not to be confused with kiai) bad sportsmanship, arrogant instructors or coaches and deplorable conduct by parents.

The weapons forms have become extremely flashy. Real weapons have been replaced with garbage. The Bo Staff replaced with giant super light weight tooth picks. Chinese Swords replaced with flexible tin of some sort.

No matter how good you are with the weapon it’s the back flips and other non related theatrics that gets the win.
My concern is that people cannot separate showmanship from real defensive techniques. I have seen self defense demonstrations that would get you killed if you tried that crap on the streets. When entering into a self defense category of a tournament, the legitimate self defense will always lose to the theatrical stuff. Will we ever return to the real deal again?

"Bring n the barf bags."

 

[Andrew Green]

Umm...

Why would you be looking for "real" self-defence in a sport that IS a performance art.

That is what forms competitions are about, putting on a good show. Don't care for that, maybe Muay Thai, K-1, UFC, Pride, etc. are more your thing.

But forms as a competitive event and Whatever you mean by "real" do not mix.

 

[Scout_379]

Over the past several years I have seen real Karate replaced with acrobatics, loud screaming, (not to be confused with kiai) bad sportsmanship, arrogant instructors or coaches and deplorable conduct by parents.

The weapons forms have become extremely flashy. Real weapons have been replaced with garbage. The Bo Staff replaced with giant super light weight tooth picks. Chinese Swords replaced with flexible tin of some sort.

No matter how good you are with the weapon it’s the back flips and other non related theatrics that gets the win.
My concern is that people cannot separate showmanship from real defensive techniques. I have seen self defense demonstrations that would get you killed if you tried that crap on the streets. When entering into a self defense category of a tournament, the legitimate self defense will always lose to the theatrical stuff. Will we ever return to the real deal again?

"Bring n the barf bags."

No lie, I have never seen a competition like that in my life. except clips here and there on the internet, usually on some humour site.

The "real deal" is still kicking around, believe me. You just have to go to the right tournaments I think.

Kata competition is a beautiful thing to watch when its done seriously. I have no idea how it could've become so warped like you described.


imo, this thread is begging for...disagreements, lets keep it clean

 

[RRouuselot]

Umm...

Why would you be looking for "real" self-defence in a sport that IS a performance art.

That is what forms competitions are about, putting on a good show. Don't care for that, maybe Muay Thai, K-1, UFC, Pride, etc. are more your thing.

But forms as a competitive event and Whatever you mean by "real" do not mix.

Originally kata performance was meant as a way to demonstrate one’s knowledge/understanding of the kata as well as “kime” = focus, power, speed, and “spirit”……

 

[The Kai]

For the most part competion has gone down the tubes. Shi**y forms, nonsense weapon katas, poor attitudes.


2 things can be done
scout mentioned real deal tourny's - well where and when?

Get enough of your students and like meinded friends to attend and swing the black belt meeting to martial arts
Todd

 

[RRouuselot]

For the most part competion has gone down the tubes. Shi**y forms, nonsense weapon katas, poor attitudes.


2 things can be done
scout mentioned real deal tourny's - well where and when?

Get enough of your students and like meinded friends to attend and swing the black belt meeting to martial arts
Todd

........or #3.....take the "martial posers" out back and beat the crap out of them.

 

[The Prof]

Thank you for your response. What I did not add was this: Many tournaments, especially some of the big ones have added self defense as one of the competitions. They state in their rules that the self defense must be legitimate defensive techniques. Then when I see the stuff they are doing, it just blows my mind. The judges who obviously do not know fact from fiction judge on theatrics not reality.

Now for the record, please know I don’t go looking for self defense at any tournament. I used to go to judge and see old friends. But as time went on I became more disillusioned with what I was seeing. I started to become judgmental and I did not like that, so I just stopped going to tournaments.

If you had ever been to the US Open in Orlando, up to just a few years ago, for about ten years my Niseido Ju Jitsu Demonstration team performed at the Night of Champions event. If you had caught any of the action, you would better understand what I mean. From time to time they still show us on ESPN2 replays. I guess that I just miss the real stuff.

Umm...

Why would you be looking for "real" self-defence in a sport that IS a performance art.

That is what forms competitions are about, putting on a good show. Don't care for that, maybe Muay Thai, K-1, UFC, Pride, etc. are more your thing.

But forms as a competitive event and Whatever you mean by "real" do not mix.

 

[The Prof]

Thanks for the response. You are right, "the real deal" is still around. In my neck of the woods it can be found in the AAU Karate tournaments.

No lie, I have never seen a competition like that in my life. except clips here and there on the internet, usually on some humour site.

The "real deal" is still kicking around, believe me. You just have to go to the right tournaments I think.

Kata competition is a beautiful thing to watch when its done seriously. I have no idea how it could've become so warped like you described.


imo, this thread is begging for...disagreements, lets keep it clean

 

[The Prof]

If it is a performance art as you say, then it should not be called a martial art. Performance arts will get you killed on the streets. "Survival is an everyday reality."

Originally kata performance was meant as a way to demonstrate one’s knowledge/understanding of the kata as well as “kime” = focus, power, speed, and “spirit”……

 

[The Prof]

Thank you for understanding my point and pretty much verifying what I and many others know. Maybe one day things will revert back to "the good old and honorable ways."

For the most part competion has gone down the tubes. Shi**y forms, nonsense weapon katas, poor attitudes.


2 things can be done
scout mentioned real deal tourny's - well where and when?

Get enough of your students and like meinded friends to attend and swing the black belt meeting to martial arts
Todd

 

[The Prof]

I think I sent the wrong reply to you, Sorry. I love your reply to my thread. Thanks. Again, please forgive my mistake.

........or #3.....take the "martial posers" out back and beat the crap out of them.

 

[The Prof]

If it is a performance art as you say, then it should not be called a martial art. Performance arts will get you killed on the streets. "Survival is an everyday reality."

Umm...

Why would you be looking for "real" self-defence in a sport that IS a performance art.

That is what forms competitions are about, putting on a good show. Don't care for that, maybe Muay Thai, K-1, UFC, Pride, etc. are more your thing.

But forms as a competitive event and Whatever you mean by "real" do not mix.

 

[RRouuselot]

If it is a performance art as you say, then it should not be called a martial art. Performance arts will get you killed on the streets. "Survival is an everyday reality."

I think you meant this fro someone else.....I never said that it was performance art.

 

[The Kai]

One of the main problems is that the McDojo can throw dozens of pre teen black belt on the judging panel, not to mention untold numbers of of color with a stripe belts.

Our dojo does'nt train for tournament fighting, we adapt but don't play the game.

Maintain a presence out there to keep them honest

AAU huh?? Was this the deal Scout was refering to??

Matbe I need to check it out
Todd

 

[okinawagojuryu]

Dear Riccardi Sensei ,

I know what you mean , as far as these so called tournaments are these days , it's a joke . It should be called a circus , not a tournament ; or perhaps a Gymnastics tournament . I used to compete in the AAU , back in the 90's , but they we're pretty much biased to Shotokan stylists . Being a Goju stylist , I wouldnt do too well . I heard they've opened up seperate divisions now though , which would be a better idea , I think , but , it's all political . I've stopped competing several years ago , & now just train . I think part of the problem is , most of the people judging are just ignorant , their not educated about other styles , so they do'nt know what to look for . I used to compete in the FLMA , as well ; and I've brought it up in meetings , & in private to the past president , that we should try to educate eachother on what to look for , in different styles forms . Alot of people say , oh look for balance , timing , good solid stances , etc . But , what might be correct in my style , might not be correct in yours . So , we need to educate each other . I've noticed you too are in FL , maybe we should get together to put together a new tournament circuit , for us traditionalists , educate the judges , & make sure it's not biased to one paticular style .

David Somers
www.angelfire.com/fl5/okinawagojuryu
www.okinawagojuryu.org

 

[Mark70Z]

David...I'm all for your recommendation to start a different circuit (or maybe just a few traditional tournaments) that are for TMAists. I too am in FL, and my son (he's 13) competes within a few of the organizations here in FL(KICK/USA, NFMAA); not really for points, but for the fun of competing. He does Shorin Ryu and we've had to adjust his form so he'd have a chance at placing within these tourney's. We've found that most judges don't know the correct stances, proper placement of punches, etc. to make a good judgment of the kata. I guess it was either that...or he wasn't doing too well LOL! Also, we've competed the last few years at the US Open (NASKA) in Orlando, and very few competitors did traditional kata's in the traditional kata division. By the way...none of the individuals that did do a traditional kata placed. If your not ranked/seeded you don't really have a chance.

As a side note...he just started learning Sepai, which his instructor learned from a Goju Ryu practitioner. This coming year (2005) he's going to try and compete with this kata in a few tournaments. He has been performing the kata Seisan.

 

[Andrew Green]

If it is a performance art as you say, then it should not be called a martial art. Performance arts will get you killed on the streets. "Survival is an everyday reality."

They can call themselves whatever they like, as can you.

"Art" has many meanings.

And "Martial Arts" is more commonly associated with the theatrical methods then anything else anyways, so it would seem that it is not they that lost the fight for the name

A judged, Choreographed routine is about putting on a show, nothing more. Doesn't matter what it is called, that is the goal.

 

[okinawagojuryu]

Pleae look up the word Martial in the dictionary , Andrew . True Kata , is not theatrical , you are practicing life protection skills . Your reply indicates , that you do not understand Kata , & might as well be dancing , or perhaps gymnastics , because that is the garbage that is at todays tournaments . It makes me sick !
Mark , it would take much more than us to start a new circuit . If we could get more people involved , it might work out . I have'nt competed in years , & most of the people I train w/ dont compete anymore , or never competed at all .
I'm getting to the point , where it's nothing but a waste of time , & money to compete . Tournaments these days cost sooo much money , all it's good for , is to make the promoters pockets fat . My Karate now , is for me . Not for anyone else . I dont need somone who has no clue as to what I'm doin , or any clue as to the bunkai of the kata , to tell me if i'm doin the kata right , or wrong . As far as the fighting is concerned it's a joke ! If they would try that game of tag on the street , they would get hurt . For kids , tournaments are ok , because it helps build their confidence , etc . But , as adults their nothing more than a waste of time ! I'd much rather spend my money on training , or taking my wife to a movie , or something , than goin to a cirus like that !

David

 

[Andrew Green]

Pleae look up the word Martial in the dictionary , Andrew .

We aren't talking about the word "martial" we are talking about the term "Martial Arts". Common Usage dictates meaning far more then what the roots of the word/term are. Many dictionaries will also define "Martial Arts" as being Asian in origin...

 

[Simon Curran]

Pleae look up the word Martial in the dictionary , Andrew . True Kata , is not theatrical , you are practicing life protection skills . Your reply indicates , that you do not understand Kata , & might as well be dancing , or perhaps gymnastics , because that is the garbage that is at todays tournaments . It makes me sick !
Mark , it would take much more than us to start a new circuit . If we could get more people involved , it might work out . I have'nt competed in years , & most of the people I train w/ dont compete anymore , or never competed at all .
I'm getting to the point , where it's nothing but a waste of time , & money to compete . Tournaments these days cost sooo much money , all it's good for , is to make the promoters pockets fat . My Karate now , is for me . Not for anyone else . I dont need somone who has no clue as to what I'm doin , or any clue as to the bunkai of the kata , to tell me if i'm doin the kata right , or wrong . As far as the fighting is concerned it's a joke ! If they would try that game of tag on the street , they would get hurt . For kids , tournaments are ok , because it helps build their confidence , etc . But , as adults their nothing more than a waste of time ! I'd much rather spend my money on training , or taking my wife to a movie , or something , than goin to a cirus like that !

David

I have to say that I couldn't agree with you more, a family member recently recorded a Discovery Channel production they called XMA, and I must admit that it got my goat.
Everyone gets into the martial arts for their own reasons, and if that persons motivation is competition, then that is fine by me, I personally don't need the ego trip of trying to show the world I am the best, I am quite comfortable with myself to not need it.
What really iritates me though, is that this kind of junk is what substantiates the public pre-conception that "All that martial arts stuff don't really work...." etc.
If this is the public presentation of the martial arts, then who can blame people for thinking that way?
Some of the stuff shown in this tv show is much more akin to gymnastics than it is to martial arts, again I have no problem if that is what a person wants to do, that is entirely up to tham, but for me I still like to prioritise the "martial" over the "art"