Where did the real Karate go?

[BruceCalkins]

1.) You forgot workouts in parks and playgrounds

"Bruce Lee Worked in the Park and trained outside with no mats or Equpment. Does that make him a Fake"

2.) They can't cause it won't "sell":shrug:
Due to the High cost of insurance Full contact tournaments are a thing of the past. Besides in point fighting you don't have to kill your partner to win. Even socalled Full Contact fights like the UFC, have rules to make it winable by mostly Jui Jitsu Fighters. They don't allow Biteing or Eye Gouges or Groin Kicks to get out of the arm bar. Those are against the rules."

3.) Yes, the good old days.....but there were some cons to those days.
"In the Good old days Martial Arts were Brothers. No mater what their style and many worked together. I have been in the arts from 1968 to date and Cross training and Martial Brotherhood is still all good."

We need to just open our minds and hearts to new ways of thought and build the Martial Arts world

 

[RRouuselot]

1.) "Bruce Lee Worked in the Park and trained outside with no mats or Equpment. Does that make him a Fake"

2.) Due to the High cost of insurance Full contact tournaments are a thing of the past. Besides in point fighting you don't have to kill your partner to win. Even socalled Full Contact fights like the UFC, have rules to make it winable by mostly Jui Jitsu Fighters. They don't allow Biteing or Eye Gouges or Groin Kicks to get out of the arm bar. Those are against the rules."

3.) "In the Good old days Martial Arts were Brothers. No mater what their style and many worked together. I have been in the arts from 1968 to date and Cross training and Martial Brotherhood is still all good."

You still here? You claimed you were leaving………

1)[font=&quot] [/font]Lee also opened a dojo and charged an unbelievable amount of money to train with him.

2)[font=&quot] [/font]They are still around.

3)[font=&quot] [/font]Really? According to who? You? I seem to remember an incident back in the 60’s/70’s with Count Dante where several members of a dojo were killed. I also remember something called “dojo yaburi”…..know what that is? It’s certainly not new.

 

[47MartialMan]

1.) You forgot workouts in parks and playgrounds

"Bruce Lee Worked in the Park and trained outside with no mats or Equpment. Does that make him a Fake"

2.) They can't cause it won't "sell":shrug:
Due to the High cost of insurance Full contact tournaments are a thing of the past. Besides in point fighting you don't have to kill your partner to win. Even socalled Full Contact fights like the UFC, have rules to make it winable by mostly Jui Jitsu Fighters. They don't allow Biteing or Eye Gouges or Groin Kicks to get out of the arm bar. Those are against the rules."

3.) Yes, the good old days.....but there were some cons to those days.
"In the Good old days Martial Arts were Brothers. No mater what their style and many worked together. I have been in the arts from 1968 to date and Cross training and Martial Brotherhood is still all good."

We need to just open our minds and hearts to new ways of thought and build the Martial Arts world

1.) Yes, I just thought to add parks and playgrounds.

2.) Yes, I always ponered why something would be called "Ultimate" with rules involved.

3.) Brotherhood in the past was not always apparent. There were rival schools with challengers droping in.

Back to topic: Is the term "real" to mean "authentic"?

 

[mj-hi-yah]

Mod Note.

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

- MJ
- MT Moderator

 

[Rich Parsons]

Karate has, sadly, become a fairly generic term in the US. I don't know why it happened to Karate but not to Kung Fu, which still implies a Chinese (descended) system.

Well I think the Chinese systems remained a little more closed, then the Japanese systems. If you look at South East Michigan you can find the Japanese arts here first, and then some of the Korean arts. And as mentioned that the ignorance of the average person, that sees a punch and or kick and does not know the difference of technique or style, and seed them all as the same. I know people that call Pepsi by the name Coke. Why becuase they new Coke first, so this is their frame of reference.

Just what I see, from my little cornder of the world.

 

[RRouuselot]

47martialman,

Maybe you didn't see this question for you.....here it is again..


So what art do you actually train in now?

You have also mentioned your “students”…..what art do you teach?

 

[47MartialMan]

47martialman,

Maybe you didn't see this question for you.....here it is again..


So what art do you actually train in now?

You have also mentioned your “students”…..what art do you teach?

From the terms and requirements of this forum, I shall not answer you....of all people.

And I do not find any relation to this answer in correspondence to this thread.

 

[RRouuselot]

From the terms and requirements of this forum, I shall not answer you....of all people.

And I do not find any relation to this answer in correspondence to this thread.

I just thought you might grace us with an answer since you try to speak with an authoritative voice on the subject of Karate and where did it go……but hey, if you have a problem with posting an answer to a simple question that may shed some light on to where you base you opinions that you post on this thread no problem.

 

[47MartialMan]

I just thought you might grace us with an answer since you try to speak with an authoritative voice on the subject of Karate and where did it go……but hey, if you have a problem with posting an answer to a simple question that may shed some light on to where you base you opinions that you post on this thread no problem.

I am not here to grace you with such an answer

And, I did not claim to be a "authoritative voice on the subject of Karate".

And, I did know that shedding some light on the basis of opnions is a criteria on this forum. Nor was the idea of bashing and debunking.

And, I have no problem with posting a answer to anyone..but you.

And, you really should stick to the topic of threads.

 

[arnisador]

Well I think the Chinese systems remained a little more closed, then the Japanese systems. If you look at South East Michigan you can find the Japanese arts here first, and then some of the Korean arts. And as mentioned that the ignorance of the average person, that sees a punch and or kick and does not know the difference of technique or style, and seed them all as the same. I know people that call Pepsi by the name Coke. Why becuase they new Coke first, so this is their frame of reference.

Hmmm, seems plausible...I think "Korean Karate" was the start of it, to my mind.

 

[47MartialMan]

Hmmm, seems plausible...I think "Korean Karate" was the start of it, to my mind.

How true. I have even seen yellow page ads that stated this to give the common wealth a idea or concept.

But how "real" is "real" or "authentic" as "authentic"?

 

[RRouuselot]

I am not here to grace you with such an answer

1) And, I did not claim to be a "authoritative voice on the subject of Karate".

And, I did know that shedding some light on the basis of opnions is a criteria on this forum. Nor was the idea of bashing and debunking.

2) And, I have no problem with posting a answer to anyone..but you.

3) And, you really should stick to the topic of threads.

1) What are you basing your opinions on? I mean if someone who has only trained in Arnis gives their opinion about what karate is I would wonder what they base that opinion.

2) ……….

3) Actually it is on topic. I base my opinion on the topic of this thread from over 25 years in Karate training, which I think gives me a little bit of knowledge about the art and a base for an opinion.

 

[RRouuselot]

But how "real" is "real" or "authentic" as "authentic"?

You just love to play “semantics” don’t you?

Therefore I'll ask you..........how fake is fake?

 

[searcher]

RRouselot I have a question for you. What is your background in karate? I have seen some make mention that you are a student of Oyata, is this Taika Oyata from Independance, Missouri? Just something I have been wondering.

Now on topic, I think Rich Parsons has hit it on the head with the use of "karate" as a general term for most martial arts and the use of "kung fu" is the same way. I feel the degradation of karate came with it being broke up into systems. This made for many creating their own styles and not continuing their education by cross-training with other instructors. It use to be that an instructor taught 1 or 2 kata and they had some "special" techniques that they felt were the techniques that made them different. We have truly lost that intermixing with the formation of styles that are very rigid in nature, by not allowing for the expansion of the techniques and the increasing of the knowledge base. WE are the one responsible for creating this mess and it is up to us to fix it. We all need to put styles aside and start getting back to the way karate was taught prior to 1900. Just my $0.02 worth.

 

[The Kai]

Actually, styles starting devolping almosr as soon as the art wwas brought to Okinwa. See Shuri-Te, naha-te, and Shorie Te. Then came shotokan, goju, wado ryu, chito ryu, kyokushin kai etc..

Also there is not a ton of evidence as to a pre 1900 karate

 

[searcher]

Actually, styles starting devolping almosr as soon as the art wwas brought to Okinwa. See Shuri-Te, naha-te, and Shorie Te. Then came shotokan, goju, wado ryu, chito ryu, kyokushin kai etc..

Also there is not a ton of evidence as to a pre 1900 karate

I do undestand that there were different groupings of kata for the areas in which they developed. But the masters of the day did travel and learn from masters indifferent areas. My point was in referance to what Miyagi was asked upon his return to Okinawa from I believe South America. He was asked what style he taught and he replied, "Karate" and was again asked what style he taught. That is when he is supposed to have started using Goju-ryu. The different towns of Shuri, Tomari, and Naha are not that far apart and this alowed for "overlap" of principals and techniques. I guess I should have stated that "real" karate started to fade when it was introduced into Primary school physical education by Itosu, Funakoshi, etc. Again, just my $0.02 worth.

 

[47MartialMan]

Actually it is on topic. I base my opinion on the topic of this thread from over 25 years in Karate training, which I think gives me a little bit of knowledge about the art and a base for an opinion.

No, you are trolling to debunk or start controversy or aggitation.

 

[47MartialMan]

You just love to play “semantics” don’t you?

Therefore I'll ask you..........how fake is fake?

Fake being not "real" or not "authentic"?

Given that Karate, like many arts, are shrouded by some inconsistancies, how, even as it is passed from generation to generation, maintain the course of true "realism". Or is "real" per the actual sight and touch? Is authentic per the actual way it was done upon its creation?

Given the sword analogy, say there is a early (centuries) Katana sword made. Experts will state that it is authentic verses the manufactured ones using stainless steel, or other modern metals. (Though these are "real" and can be better.)

However, given that there is a swordsmith that still produces a sword the same way it has been done (and can't be really sure) from generation to genration. It is "real" to sight and touch, but is it "authentic" in comparison to the centuries old one?

If someone should branch off and start their own Karate system, is it "real" that it doesn't have "blessed" lineage or actual origin from Okinawa?

 

[clfsean]

No... actually he's trying to find out exactly where you base your opinions from. What qualifications do you have to make any of the statements or assumptions posted by you in the thread?

That's what he's asking... if it gets inflammatory is dependant on your answer & verifiable background.

 

[47MartialMan]

1.) RRouselot I have a question for you. What is your background in karate? I have seen some make mention that you are a student of Oyata, is this Taika Oyata from Independance, Missouri? Just something I have been wondering.

2.) Now on topic, I think Rich Parsons has hit it on the head with the use of "karate" as a general term for most martial arts and the use of "kung fu" is the same way. I feel the degradation of karate came with it being broke up into systems. This made for many creating their own styles and not continuing their education by cross-training with other instructors. It use to be that an instructor taught 1 or 2 kata and they had some "special" techniques that they felt were the techniques that made them different. We have truly lost that intermixing with the formation of styles that are very rigid in nature, by not allowing for the expansion of the techniques and the increasing of the knowledge base. WE are the one responsible for creating this mess and it is up to us to fix it. We all need to put styles aside and start getting back to the way karate was taught prior to 1900. Just my $0.02 worth.

1.) Nice question, but I do not see where this needing to know someone's practice in relation to this thread. For everyone has their own opinion of this thread without such. Surely, if anyone practiced Karate, any form, and did research on the subject, could post a opinion of it. But then again, if someone didn't practice Karate, how can they determine what is actually "real"? From their own mind, they can label any art thus. Or if someone is told they are studying Karate, then in their mind, also, would believe what they do is "real".

2.) We can't fix something so controversial with inconsistancies. And let's not forget the politics involved or may surface. And how can anyone teach/practice the way Karate was taught long ago? How can anyone actually say that theirs is THE way it WAS done so long ago? Transmissions get lost, forgotten, or altered. Not to mention, many instructors of their passing, took information when they deceased.