Where did the real Karate go?

[kingkong89]

people dont want real karate anymore they want hollywood and excitement

 

[chinto]

people dont want real karate anymore they want hollywood and excitement

I dont know about that so much, as I think meany do not want to work hard and sweat a lot and all that for real techniques for real fights. the effort is just to much from their perspective I guess with out some kind of flash and glamor added.

 

[Uchinanchu]

An interesting (and sad) situation for all practioners to consider when choosing to enter the tournament arenas outside of Japan/Okinawa. It still amazes me how it is like night and day when comparing the western concept of a so-called "tournament" to the traditional Taikai that still exists today in Japan and Okinawa.

Of course, the modern day version of the taikai has its flaws as well. Many so-called modern day traditional dojo now teach two versions of kata, one for the regular dojo practice and one solely for tournament competion. The competion kata still adheres to a traditional format, but has been "tweaked" to look more asthetically pleasing to the eye. (ie.-crisper, snappier movements).
Sadly, more and more schools seem to be teaching only the "tweaked" versions and have, in the process, lost many of the basic underlying principals that are supposed to make up their respective styles.
Just my two cents worth.
Yoroshiku

 

[hungfistron]

The real Karate has never left, it has only been mostly forgotten and unknown to most individuals that do not practice Classical Budo. When Ego and money is left out of it, then it is pure no matter what style we are talking about. There is a distinct difference between a Martial Art style and a Martial Art style being used for sport.

If you are looking for "the real" as you put it, you will find it where ego, money, and winning is not.

 

[searcher]

The real karate has done what it did in the past, it is now being trained by many instructors in private or with a select few students. Then they teach the public a watered-down version.

 

[JWLuiza]

There are tournaments where traditional forms are appreciated and awarded. The last tournament I competed in, I was thanked for actually focusing on my weapon during a kata and not jump spinning 360s.

 

[seasoned]

It is very hard to add anything, to what has been said. There are a few DoJo out there, where the Sensei still teaches the virtues of the traditional arts, but they are getting far and few between, Sadly though, the general public, because of all the movie sensationalism, just won’t stand for anything less they all that frill.

 

[Uchinanchu]

The real Karate has never left, it has only been mostly forgotten and unknown to most individuals that do not practice Classical Budo. When Ego and money is left out of it, then it is pure no matter what style we are talking about. There is a distinct difference between a Martial Art style and a Martial Art style being used for sport.

If you are looking for "the real" as you put it, you will find it where ego, money, and winning is not.

I wholeheartedly concur with your opinion on traditional arts vs. sport aspect. I felt that I should point out to you though, that karate is not considered a "classical budo" by the Japanese. Point in fact, karate originally was not considered a budo art at all, since it came into being through the Okinawans via China. It was not until much later, when karate started getting noticed by the Japanese, that many Okinawan masters wished to have their respective systems of karate recognized by the Japanese as a legitimate system. Thus, that was the true "beginning of the end" for karate as a unique art to Okinawa.

 

[joewtka]

I totally understand you question sir. For those who have never trained in Traditional Karate, you speak Greek. They have no concept of the old school style of Karate Do. I have seen some of the commements and answers to your question and it proves that they don't understand. Martial Arts has eveolved into somewhat of
paralele universe. The perfomance world and the true wold of what was passed down from the forefathers of Karate Do. WHile I have great respect for the perormance abilities and amazing feets of martial gymnastics, It is not for me. The traditional arts once inbreaded into ones soul becomes the only way that will be accepted. The Great unakoshi said, Martial Arts will evolve. I don't think he knew just how much his statement would come to. If you really want to experience Traditional Martial Arts Competition, please see usankf.org The USANKF is the National Governing Body for Olympic Competition in Traditional Karate. As far as this topic goes for Traditional Karate, competiton was developed to test ones skills against students from other styles and other Dojos. As for the origional performance of Kata. Allow me to say that Ktata is nothting more than Kihon Waza (Basic Technique) unless the student has been taught the Bunkai of the Kata. In the BUnkai (Application and Understanding) there are several levels of knowledge about each kata. The basic Bunkai (What is my apponent doing and what am I doig to defend against it). Gokui Bunkai (The inner most Secrets of the Kata), the Oyo Bunkai ( How to end each comfrontation with in the Kata) and the Kakushi Bunkai (The hidden Techiques that only few left alive today know). If one truely knows his/her kata form these areas of Bunkai, the he she will be able to perform their kata with the abilty to display these areas of knowledge. There is also the elements of a true kata performance. But then, I would right a book to explain all of this. In my 52 years of Karate training, I have seen Traditional karate Ka, and Modern Martial Artists. I choose the tradition.
Shihan Joe Williams

 

[Steve]

The real karate has done what it did in the past, it is now being trained by many instructors in private or with a select few students. Then they teach the public a watered-down version.

Is this true? There are secret, uber deadly versions of karate being taught? Neat.

 

[hungfistron]

I wholeheartedly concur with your opinion on traditional arts vs. sport aspect. I felt that I should point out to you though, that karate is not considered a "classical budo" by the Japanese. Point in fact, karate originally was not considered a budo art at all, since it came into being through the Okinawans via China. It was not until much later, when karate started getting noticed by the Japanese, that many Okinawan masters wished to have their respective systems of karate recognized by the Japanese as a legitimate system. Thus, that was the true "beginning of the end" for karate as a unique art to Okinawa.

Wanted to do some research on this statement by my good friend Uchinanchu. Here's what I found man...

The word "bu" of budo is written with the chinese character for stop within a character signifying two crossed halberds meaning to stop conflict. Since karate is a budo, this meaning should be deeply considered, and the fists should not be used heedlessly.

Karate-Do Kyohan aka The Master Text

That being said any martial art whether its based in Okinawa or not if used by a student that is a practitioner of budo, or seeks to stop conflict, and passes on this work to others even in death is practicing Budo.

 

[searcher]

Is this true? There are secret, uber deadly versions of karate being taught? Neat.

Yes, and I am standing right behind you in all my ninja goodness.:whip::matrix::ninja:

 

[Uchinanchu]

Wanted to do some research on this statement by my good friend Uchinanchu. Here's what I found man...




That being said any martial art whether its based in Okinawa or not if used by a student that is a practitioner of budo, or seeks to stop conflict, and passes on this work to others even in death is practicing Budo.

From a philosophical (and training) point of view, I can agree with your statement, but I was talking about it from an historical point. The Japanese have what is referred to as "koryu" arts or "classical" bujutsu. Classical budo followed these arts during the Tokugawa reign. It wasn't until around the meiji era that modern budo and bujutsu came about. This of course all took place in Japan.
Karate was never designated as a "classical budo" because it simply did not exist as such in mainland Japan. Point in fact, the classically trained bushi considered most forms of unarmed combat beneath them because it was something regarded as a peasant's/merchant's form of fighting (brawling). Of course, they did practice certain forms of grappling in full armor, but even in this, they used weapons such as knives for finishing off their oppenents.

 

[hungfistron]

Thanks for clearing that up for me bro, thats why its so good to have these discussions

 

[kailat]

Hey guys I dont get on here much anymore. Not sure when I will after i make this post. But the topic at question here needs a great deal of attention. I've been involved in the martial arts in one way or another since early 1985. I started back when the PKC karate tournaments were a big and I mean BIG deal. Schools from all over the midwest would travel and compete at these events. What has happened that I seen over the years is the lack of devotion for the karate tournament scene has ceased. Many, the original shihans have retired such as Glenn Keeny, Ron White, Eddie Bethea to name a few. Although they may still train rarely, they have given the tournament scene a rest and the PKC has fallen due to it. The last real tournament i went to, shown real lack of poor judgement and sportsmanship. Back when I was a young teen going up the ranks these prestigeous events were well monitored and handled with great care. Today, the judges are pissy when on the board, many the students are ranked way above thier skill level and it shows in the competion level. It downright urks many higher ranking black belts. As someone mentioned the new age black belt is like 13yrs old in some cases. I'll never forget when I had a 14 yr old "CHILD" sitting on the judge panel with me, the last time I attended a tourmament. Not to mention I had one said individual a higher recognized black belt from another school/dojo start screaming profanity at the children in his care. I was totally appauled and not to mention just disgusted w/ the whole thing. I vowed never to go back to another one and or support it and I have not been back since. That was about 4 to 5 years ago. I saw 2 black belt instructors of two seperate dojo's fighting and actually hit one another in the hallway of the event over bad blood sort of thing. To only be broken up by Shihan Ron White and he was so badly disrespected that I was just so over it I had left and never to return to that scene since. Where has the class and the true meaning of the art went? It is all about winning now at any cost. KATA 's have been changed up and reformated to be ran and performed better for comptetion purposes, and not for the actual way it was performed. I recently had taught a black belt kata bassai sho to a group of brown belts. After 3 weeks of returning I had seen this kata being performed completely different than how i had taught it, in order to make it more flashy and showy! I was completely PISSED off about this! I brought it to the Sensei attention and was given the well they think this way looks better.. IM LIKE WTF??? Since when does the brown belts have the right to make a decision whether a kata looks better one way than another to the instructor? WOW, I've left that school alone since as well. I've completly given up on martial arts in this town and amongst it all the way around anymore. It is n my blood and I love the arts but as for this area has to offer and me, im becoming more of a ghost w/ it all. Maybe one day i'll re-appear but for now im giving it up and taking my break. All due to the lack of REALITY and REALISM that has been taken away from the training and true meaning of the Karate-Do spirit...

 

[astrobiologist]

In my experience, modern martial arts tournaments, at least in the USA (not sure of anywhere else), have become more about the "arts" than the "martial". With the open tournaments being a big hit for kids and young people, so many schools pushing for competition rather than martial technique, and the XMA stuff coming around, it's pretty much diluded most american "martial" arts schools. Don't get me wrong here. This XMA stuff, like wushu, is fun to watch, but most of those kids would get clobbered if they actually fought a real martial artist. I would love to see a modern day movement towards applicable martial arts practise outside of MMA. MMA can be useful, but it still ends up getting diluded due to the sport aspect and all the money involved. A lot of kids hear MMA and they have this weak mix of BJJ and Muay Thai in their head rather than a mix of applicable martial arts.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Kilat,
Just a fyi Kyoshi Bethea is still teaching actively in Kokomo, IN.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I hope I'm not jumping in here with a big mouth and no understanding of the subject, but from reading the thread, I at least think I understand.

I have been extremely fortunate. I found my Isshinryu dojo in September of last year, it was my first real karate training. The dojo is in a run-down storefront in Michigan, near Detroit. There is a mat on the floor and a back room with a changing area and bathrooms. No showers, no trophies, no shrine. We bow to the shomen, then to the senseis, then we begin to work. We learn the Japanese terms for what we do.

I pay $50 a month, no contract. My sensei says he does not operate the dojo to make money, it's a hobby for him, he has a day job. He's 8th dan, learned directly from Masters Mitchum and Long, was elected to the Isshinryu Hall of Fame, and his instructors, who draw no pay and also have day jobs, are 5th dan. We have as many black belts as we have lower belts, and yet the average time to make black belt is about 9 years. People who want belts tend to move on...

I am a whitebelt, and if it takes me a year to advance, so be it. I'm learning a huge amount, starting with the upper and lower body exercises and then Sanchin kata. I find that I am pleased with the idea of earning belts, but it's frankly not why I'm there. Yes, I want to someday earn a blackbelt, but if it were just given to me, it wouldn't mean anything to me. I want something I can take pride in, and I need to know I did something extraordinary to earn it.

We don't do tournaments, mostly. I'm told that our dojo has gone to a few, but carefully selected and of course, they involve travel, so they're voluntary.

I feel like I've stepped back in time. I am learning karate. I am not learning how to perform in a tournament, and although I am sure that's something that many people desire, it's not a goal of mine, so I think I'm in the right place. My sensei also demonstrates other techniques he has learned over the years that fall under the category of 'self defense' and have applicability on the street, not that I intend to be involved in a street fight anytime soon. He always tells us when he's showing us something that is not Isshinryu, but just something he wants us to see and try.

We train, white and black belts alike, with bo-bo kumite. Only the higher ranks train with sai kata and bo-sai kumite, so I look forward to that. We have tonfa, but I've not yet seen them used in the dojo. We don't have any swords that I've seen.

We kumite with pads, but we punch and kick to the center line, hard. I've already broken a toe - that'll learn me to keep my toes pointed correctly. I have been told by some of the other students that we used to go to some local tournaments but were basically thrown out because we punch and kick very hard and hurt people. I don't know if that's true or not, just what I heard from another student. I know that I train hard, I hit and kick hard, and I get hit and kicked hard. I'm middle-aged, fat, and out of shape, but that's changing.

We are taught that karate begins and ends with politeness and respect, and sensei expects it of us.

This is the karate I hoped to learn - the mind, the body, and the spirit. I am very pleased.

Perhaps this is the 'old school' karate that some are talking about in this thread. It's certainly the karate that I hoped to find and I believe I have succeeded.