Use of Force Law

Discussion in 'General Self Defense' started by Tgace, Sep 2, 2004.

  1. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2006
    Messages:
    20,469
    Likes Received:
    1,610
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Northern VA
    I need more info, like what the mechanism of death was. On the surface, with what is here... manslaughter is reasonable. I could see murder in the second depending on specifics like a blindside attack without any warning.

    Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
     
  2. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2006
    Messages:
    24,202
    Likes Received:
    3,561
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Location:
    England
    The trial started yesterday and they haven't got to the medical evidence yet, nothing has been released prior to this as the media isn't allowed to report on it before trial. The only details so far are that he was punched and collapsed.
     
  3. PhotonGuy

    PhotonGuy Senior Master

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2013
    Messages:
    2,741
    Likes Received:
    249
    Trophy Points:
    123
    Well you shouldn't be convicted if its self defense although self defense does require that you use a proportional level of force to the attacker, which can cause complications in court.

    As for the student that I know of who was convicted of a felony, this was in NJ and he was driving home when he accidentally cut off a pickup truck. The truck started following him and was still following him when he was a couple of blocks from his house and it was at this point he pulled over and got out of his car to confront whoever was driving the truck since he didn't want the driver of the truck knowing where he lived. The truck pulled up behind him and this big guy got out and came running at him. The student sidestepped him and kneed him in the stomach and then hit him in the mouth with a ridge hand and knocked some of his teeth out. As a result the student had to make two court appearances, was fined, sued, had to pay for the truck driver's teeth and during his second appearance he had a lawyer with him so he was able to avoid any prison time but he still ended up getting a felony conviction which will be for him with life and will severely limit his rights as an American citizen, including the possibility of holding down a job.

    So this student was convicted of a felony even though it was the truck driver that came running at him. This was in NJ where they're usually quite harsh about any use of force.
     
  4. gpseymour

    gpseymour Grandmaster

    Top Poster Of Month

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    8,787
    Likes Received:
    2,569
    Trophy Points:
    403
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    I'd guess in that case his problem was that he stopped to confront the guy, rather than driving past his home. He wasn't in any imminent danger until he stopped and got out.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. oftheherd1

    oftheherd1 Senior Master

    Joined:
    May 12, 2011
    Messages:
    3,584
    Likes Received:
    507
    Trophy Points:
    263
    That, and his next problem was going to court without a lawyer. It doesn't matter how right you think you are or in fact actually are. A judge or jury is only supposed to consider what is in front of them. If you can't articulate well, your lawyer should help you with that, keeping you truthful and in the bounds of the law. He will also know best how to question the other person to your advantage.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  6. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2006
    Messages:
    20,469
    Likes Received:
    1,610
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Northern VA
    Sounds to me like his lawyer got him to take a plea. Maybe he thought it made sense financially -- fighting a charge is NOT cheap.

    But, I'm kind of confused. Your friend was "fined, sued, and had to" make restitution. A fine is criminal; suing is civil. I think you may be conflating two separate acts in the play. It's quite possible to be found not guilty of an offense, or in the specific instance of self defense to be found to have been justified and thus acquitted -- but still found liable in civil court. The two proceedings are separate, with hugely different burdens of proof and rules.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. oftheherd1

    oftheherd1 Senior Master

    Joined:
    May 12, 2011
    Messages:
    3,584
    Likes Received:
    507
    Trophy Points:
    263
    There are some confusions there for sure. I hadn't thought of the lawyer suggesting a plea. If there was that much wrong the friend's relating his side of the story, it may have been a good idea for the criminal part, especially if at the first hearing he made statements that made him look bad (even if he wasn't). That testimony would then be admissible in a civil case and because the burden of proof is so much less, he may have been lucky if all he had to pay was for never inexpensive dental work.

    Just one more reason to get a lawyer involved as soon as possible if you are going to court accused of a crime.
     
  8. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2006
    Messages:
    20,469
    Likes Received:
    1,610
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Northern VA
    Doesn't have to have been much wrong with the case. I know of a case that I think had a pretty strong argument that he only left the scene of an accident because he would have gotten his *** beat if he stayed, and ended up taking a plea because the defendant simply didn't have the money to fight it at length. Same thing happens in civil cases; sometimes the deepest pockets "wins" because the other side can't afford to fight.

    By the way... here's a little more reading on one state's malicious wounding charge..
     
  9. PhotonGuy

    PhotonGuy Senior Master

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2013
    Messages:
    2,741
    Likes Received:
    249
    Trophy Points:
    123
    He did go to court with a lawyer during his second court appearance.
     
  10. PhotonGuy

    PhotonGuy Senior Master

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2013
    Messages:
    2,741
    Likes Received:
    249
    Trophy Points:
    123
    There are cases of people getting off in criminal court and still being found liable in civil court but in his case he was found guilty both criminally and civilly. He was able to get off from going to prison since he had a lawyer during his second appearance but he still was convicted and has a record.
     
  11. PhotonGuy

    PhotonGuy Senior Master

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2013
    Messages:
    2,741
    Likes Received:
    249
    Trophy Points:
    123
    That's why its good to have insurance that will cover you for such legal expenses.
     
  12. Psilent Knight

    Psilent Knight Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2017
    Messages:
    207
    Likes Received:
    38
    Trophy Points:
    28
    My attitude concerning self defense and use of force laws is simple; to hell with those laws and to hell with the rotten scoundrels who make them.
     
  13. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2006
    Messages:
    24,202
    Likes Received:
    3,561
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Location:
    England

    The burden of proof is different in civil courts to that in a criminal court.

    Yeah they all say that until they are needing the protection of said laws then it's a miraculous change of mind....
     

Share This Page