Deadly force vs. Attempt to flee

[jks9199]

#1 I have looked into the laws here and guess what, they dont always work with in the confines of a fight. There is written law, and there is street law, guess which one goes down more?

All the same , you dont have to retreat here, you have to demonstrate that your life was in peril or you had good reason to. A DA for Fredricksberg,is one of our students, we do go into the legalities in conversations,and you have some good defenses if your not the attacker in Va. He say's you might actually have a good defense if you killed a guy who takes a punch at you (He nor I morally advocate that, but..) you can say, " As a martial artist, I am aware that a single punch to the head can kill or mentally damage me, I was scarred and feared for my life, that is why I hit him in the throat and upended him onto his head." (ANd there are thousands of cases to point to where a punch has killed, it can be considerd deadly force.

You've overly simplified this. Yes -- a single punch may indeed kill. You'd still need to justify your reasonable belief that THIS particular punch from this particular person was reasonably likely to kill you or cause grievious bodily harm. You might not be tried for criminal assault -- but you may very well face civil trial. And I guarantee that the attorney sueing you will paint the picture of a hard working, law abiding, all around good guy who sent money home to momma every week -- even if we're talking about Dirty Mike from the Pagans MC or an MS gang banger. And, even though many Virginia Commonwealth's Attorneys aren't likely to charge in clear self defense cases -- that doesn't mean none do. Nor does it mean that another state's prosecutors won't.

(FYI... your argument is a lot stronger if you spell names correctly...)

I have seen people knifed and brutally stomped, I once brutally stomped a POS who tried to stick a screwdriver in me. Guess what? Not a cop in sight, non to protect my then 15 year old ***, and non to arrest me for stomping on the back of his head and neck, till I could no longer do so.

Fact of life... Cops are seldom there before they're needed. Law enforcement is a REACTIVE body. And you're lucky that your victim in the above incident didn't file a police report naming you as an attacker. Anytime you have to use serious force against someone, be smart. YOU be the one to call the cops and tell your side first.

#2 Disagreement is cool,it leads to learning and understanding.
Call me a kid, do it in person, not sitting behind your computer screen.

Don't act like a testosterone-overloaded 16 or 17 year old, and you won't be treated like one. From various of his posts -- I've got a feeling Tellner has every right to call me a kid... and I kind of suspect I've got a few years on you.

#3 Much of what I said is MY OPINION, I do feel violent thugs should be killed if they engage you, no you cant keep stomping on their heads after they are down, someone see's you and you might be going to jail, but if you break his center and you are throwing him to the street, I say do it in a way that has a high probability of killing him, on his head or lower back across the knee.
If he has a weapon, he gets knifed or shot if I can deploy the weapon , I will kill him dead.

You're entitled to opinions. Have you failed to notice all the news reports about people losing jobs or being denied diplomas or college admission based on internet postings? Imagine how the things you've said in this thread would end up looking like were you defending the amount of force you used to defend yourself, in either criminal or civil court.

#4 Sensei does go over what is legal, but also what is realistic, and what you can do if you so choose to. Jujutsu is an art of war, not a sport, yes our society clashes with many of the tenants of it, but it's a personal choice to obey or not, I choose not to obey stupid laws, that can get me dead and my children fatherless, when I can get away with it.

If you choose not to obey "stupid laws" without the understanding to protect yourself afterwards... you may very well leave your children effectively fatherless and penniless when you get locked up and sued. Realistic self defense in the US today goes beyond the physical techniques and must move into legal justifications and ramifications.

#5 (On Sensei shooting a perp in the line of duty)
Yes, he say's he did have some remorse over it, but he said he would do it again, the guy was aiming at him as he stuck his head out the fire escape window, The guy could have just run down the alley, with his loot, but for some reason, he chose to point a gun at a cop, so Dave put a round through his Brain.
HIS LAYWER, a real one, not you pontificating and going to Google, told him " Better you killed him, he's only worth 1-2 million if we lose the case, but in a wheelchair, he's worth $25-30million." Yes it went to civil trial, that happens alot to cops,BTW. Families of low lifes trying to get some $$$ from their dead rejects carcassis pretty common, the families of the West LA Shootout Gunmen tried to.

Nobody challenged the shooting. However, the mindset that "I guess I should just kill someone rather than maim them" is not the lesson to learn. Note that your sensei was faced with a very imminent threat of severe bodily harm to him, as well as to others. He took the best course of action he could in those circumstances, in keeping with his duty as an officer. If you get jumped somewhere, defend yourself against a guy whose only weapon was his hands, and stomp him into the ground... You're gonna have a lot tougher time explaining that.

#6 I guess I am wrong about declairing bankruptcy, Good I learned something, I still think it's better to kill him then to maim him, when he was out to do the same to you, I aint talking about killing some guy for starting a shoving match or because of an insult, I am talking about those who stick a gun in your face, who take an unprovoked swing at your head with a pipe or their fist, someone who outweighs you by 50#s, someone who is clearly from a thugish subculture or a gangbanger, or they have to be attacking an inocent or one of mine. I chose to live and keep my body parts and ability to move under my own power

Somebody sticks a gun in your face, run. If you can't run... give the what they want. Gun disarms are largely fantasy. If there's any other option, don't try to fight a guy with a gun unless you've got one of your own. (Know what the pro's will tell you is the best thing to bring to a gun fight? Another, bigger gun!)

But nobody here has said anything amounting to "never use lethal force." You have been strongly encouraged to make sure you understand the legal elements of using force, especially lethal force, so that you can successfully defend your actions. If you can't articulate why you reasonably believed that you were facing imminent, serious bodily harm or death, you simply cannot justify using lethal force.

Some of the people here have great martial arts exp. but make you wonder if they have ever been involved with street violence (and I'm not saying you have to have been, if not your lucky, but underinformed.), there are gangs that will sodomize you after they beat you, just because they can, they might even curb your teeth or knees, they might rape your woman right in front of you. (That was in the news lately) And if you survive this, that is the heartbreak and sleepless nights I would worry about, not the life of some lowlife who made his choice to be a wolf and attack the sheep, screw him if he runs into a sheepdog.
IMO The laws are written by Politicians, who are largely lawyers, not those who have been involved with violence,lawyers are out for lawyers, the more laws and conditions they put into things like this, the more money the bastards make. If most Politicians were builders, there would be concrete and strip malls and no trees or grasslands, it's a scam that we all have to put up with, for now.

At this point... this convinces me that I'm probably wasting my time with this. I wish you a safe life...

 

[Carol]

A consultation with a defense attorney in one's state...preferably one that is active in gun-ownership or other self-protection related matters is genearlly inexpensive and well worth the investment.

When legal advice comes from a defense attorney, it is their butt on the line if one gets in legal trouble...otherwise, it's one own butt on the line......perhaps quite literally given prison conditions.

Choose wisely.

 

[thardey]

When you say,

#6 I aint talking about killing some guy for starting a shoving match or because of an insult, I am talking about those who stick a gun in your face, who take an unprovoked swing at your head with a pipe or their fist, someone who outweighs you by 50#s, someone who is clearly from a thugish subculture or a gangbanger, or they have to be attacking an inocent or one of mine. I chose to live and keep my body parts and ability to move under my own power.

Is that a list where if someone fulfills any one of these items, you have a duty to remove him from the world of the living? Or do they have to qualify for all of them?

That is, if someone who outweighs me by 50#s takes an unprovoked swing at my head, that's different than just having "someone" taking an unprovoked swing at me.

From the construction of your sentence, it appears to be an either/or kind of a list. (I really hope not, though.) Either they stick a gun in your face, OR, they take an unprovoked swing at your head, OR, they outweigh you by 50#s, OR they are clearly thugish subculture, etc. Then you are not only justified, but:

I think it should go a step further, I feel you have a duty, as a trained fighter, to stand up to a Thug, and if you have to, kill him.

Consider this:

I am 240lbs, and athletic. If you weigh less than 190lbs., then I outweigh you by 50.

I spent last weekend running around town (for entirely practical reasons) in a long black coat, a black t-shirt, and camoflauged pants. Does that mean I am clearly "Thuggish"? How about this: I shave my head regularly, and sport a goatee. Hmm, not enough? I regularly carry a gun with me in my truck, and always have a razor-sharp single-handed opener in my pocket. I also keep a black bandana with me.

Do you feel the duty to stand up to me? Do you want to come find me? I'm easy to find, and I must be in a "clearly thuggish subculture".

Or would you prefer the image of me on a black motorcycle, wearing all black leather, including my black riding chaps and helmet? Is that "thuggish" enough for you?

Of course, some people are threatened by cowboys, should I wear my hat and boots?

My point is, that you are not qualified to determine who lives and dies, neither am I, and neither are most of the people on this board. Your DUTY is to protect yourself and people who are being illegally attacked. That protection comes in many, many forms. Part of protection is providing an avenue of escape, or a distraction.

If the ONLY way to protect "you and yours" is to attack the person, you have the RIGHT to do so. IF that attack ends up killing them, then you may be justified in your actions, like your sensei.

There is no "list" that will justify killing someone, in any country, legal or not.

 

[Darth F.Takeda]

No, that is a list of possable situations, no I'm not going to kill or maim some little guy, or a drunk for swinging at me, I tend to walk away from ego stroke fights, but if I try to avoid it, and he keeps coming, then it's on and no that guy just needs to be taken down. But it's all case by case, situation by situation.

But yes, a big monster swings on me out of the blue, with no provacation or after he has done the verbal assult interveiw " Give me your money" type of thing, and I feel this guy is out to maim, or kill me, then damn right, I have a duty to try to take him out of this world, as the next person might be a much softer target. That's my morality, not anyone elses, do what you want. I base it on how I was raised, my expeirences and my training.

And I do think I made the point, no I am not going to monkey stomp him in front of people, but if I upend him, yes I will try to put him on his head. If I flank him and go into a choke, yes I am going to slam it in, in hopes of crushing his throat. If I strip his weapon and we are close, I will try to give 1 or 2 passes at bashing his temple, or sliting his throat, if disengaed, no, I cant do anything unless he reengages and if he does, then I wont stop till he is dead, runs or is out.

I mean , do you think someone swinging a pipe at your skull is not using deadly force? He jams a pistol in your face ( and you cant run at that point, give him your money, but if you get the feeling he will kill you anyways, then you have to go for broke) is he not threating deadly force? A group surrounds you, can that not be a lethal situation for you? you can do whatever your training, morality or consceince dictates.

There is a clear Thug type culture out there, and no it is not based on appearence (BTW My parents were bikers, and were good to everyone, I too used to shave my head and wear non conformist garb) it's based on behavior and demeaner, and if you have been around, you know the type. We have MS-13 around here, taken machettes to people, they give not a &%^$ about our laws, period, there morality is outside of most American's, they will kill you over nothing.

Look, I have not been in a serious fight for over 10 years, ( a couple situations I defused, both physically-joint locks and chokes do work, and with the deploying of a weapon and the promise to use it if they came any closer to me and my pregnent girlfreind.) because I avoid bad places, try to be decent to everyone I meet, and try to walk away from stupid challenges, so if you come at me, you deserve what you get.

We are not talking about flowers and dancing here, we are talking about self defense, personal protection and wheter you should flee ( tends to set up a defensive mindset = lose the fight vs. Attacking mind= does not have to fight, or wins the fight.) or fight and possably use deadly force, so I wont come off all sweetness and light. You wanna talk art or music, family and pleasent subjects, then I'm a sweety=)

The point I made about a viable defense in court about a punch was to show that in Va, you tend to have more rights and leeway in defending yours and you, then say Maryland, or worse yet Wash. D.C. where criminals get away with massive ****, and a guy who broke his lowlife attackers arm, went to prison, that is disgusting.

And I will keep my own councel as to who I feel is a lowlfie thug and who is not, just like anyone else will, I am just honest about it.

 

[thardey]

Well, then, I'm glad we cleared that up. I really can't disagree with much at all in that post. If you can disarm the (life theatening) situation, great -- if you can't, then you've gotta be honest with yourself. If I come to that point, myself, I have a CCW, and I would try to shoot the attacker in the heart -- several times.

I do appreciate that you have accepted the brutality of what needs to be done. I think there is too much posturing by people who want to prove to others that they are tough, but they don't really beleve it themselves.

Please understand that this was my first impression of you, from your post in this thread, and now I am glad to know that I was mistaken.

:cheers:

 

[Yaozer]

I found this discussion thread to be very interesting, and some of the links helped me with the concept of "duty to retreat" and the idea of the home or car as "castle". I share the disgust with violent elements of society, and the need for some individuals to be "taken out" given certain circumstances. Several years ago a gunman shot several people in a nearby parking lot and then holed up in a (doctor's) office holding some of my nurses at gunpoint. I think had there not been so much negative publicity at the time about police shooting people, then the SWAT team might have been given the green light to take him out while he was traversing the parking lot going into the building. Obviously that was a situation where lives were in jeopardy.

In situations of conflict with debatable deadly force or where provocation might be argued (even in venues where the law might give us latitude) I think that de-escalation should still be taught even when legally we might get away with deadly force, ethically, it may be best to be nonviolent, or even merciful. If you have no choice you have no choice, and if I'm being punched I will counter...but....

In our TSD school, we have articles of faith which teach to "never retreat in battle", but also to "know the difference between good and evil". Escalating into violence out of pride (or is one secretly hoping to finally use those techniques honed for years?) or vigilanteism (is that a word?) is not necessarily the most harmonious way to exist in our world as civilized people. In our blackbelt test, our Sa Bom Nim said that in changing from red to black (actually midnight blue) belts, we are to become like the colors....calmer, and more humble. I wonder if this sort of instruction is missing in some combat centered schools.

 

[Darth F.Takeda]

Heck, rereading my second post, I do sound like a jerk, oh well.

Cheers.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

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[thardey]

Heck, rereading my second post, I do sound like a jerk, oh well.

Cheers.

No worries, it's hard to communicate "tone" on a written forum. Glad it got worked out.