UFC 193

[elder999]

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Actually, most all of MMA striking training is incorrect for actual competitor.... I can refer you to Ja Gow's threads, videos & post for a start...
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Everyone is so quick to blame Tarverdyan. Yet what he trains is identical to 90% of what MMA camps are doing.... Some exceptions other than Jackson exist. Nonetheless you are now criticizing precisely what I have been criticizing about MMA striking training all along.
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Edmond Tarverdyan is now just the lighting rod 'cause Honda bombed.... MMA conventional training and Honda herself deserve the lionshare of blame... not Taverdyan.... that's the scapegoat easy way out for MT.

SO what you're saying, then, is that MMA training is wrong for MMA?

Interesting.,

 

[Dinkydoo]

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Actually, most all of MMA striking training is incorrect for actual competitor.... I can refer you to Ja Gow's threads, videos & post for a start...
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Everyone is so quick to blame Tarverdyan. Yet what he trains is identical to 90% of what MMA camps are doing.... Some exceptions other than Jackson exist. Nonetheless you are now criticizing precisely what I have been criticizing about MMA striking training all along.
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Edmond Tarverdyan is now just the lighting rod 'cause Honda bombed.... MMA conventional training and Honda herself deserve the lionshare of blame... not Taverdyan.... that's the scapegoat easy way out for MT.

So for the last year and a half, mostly at kickboxing and now latterly at Muay Thai and MMA, I've always been told not to chase an opponent straight on but to instead circle and use the jab as a measuring tool to gauge distance and get inside. Now I've personally been really bad at applying this theory (a few black eyes as evidence) but regardless, if your post was true then I've now trained at two different clubs that are doing what 90% of other gyms are not....

I seriously doubt that.

 

[ShotoNoob]

When your job is to turn out mma superstars. I am sure you go for the best basic talent.

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As a businessman.... Jackson is the BEST in MMA. But then he's lauded as being Mr, Nice Guy for everyone.... I've seen the same BS in my current karate org.... Promotion of the top echelon is rampant over the students. The great character trait about Ja Gow is that he readily fesses up to his ego.... that's someone prospective students should value.....

But he does train some not so top tier guys. Kyle noke. Is a greg Jackson guy.

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Well thanks for the input.... I really don't follow Jackson closely.... I'm a traditional karate guy who Greg Jackson wouldn't want a guest appearance from me... The way to outstrike Holly Holm or Jon Jones is traditional karate... the kind I have posted on. Ja Gow might give them a run for the money....
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I have literally shocked the so-called tough guys at my current dojo; as well as elsewhere.... But with all the 'disagrees' and 'dislikes' I get like here; who is willing to train to traditional karate standards...???
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In closing, Jackson DOES run the best MMA coaching business... With only Holly Holm & Jone Jones in the gym though, his income statement would be pretty bleak with out the regulars.... My dojo same commercial realization....

 

[ShotoNoob]

So for the last year and a half, mostly at kickboxing and now latterly at Muay Thai and MMA, I've always been told not to chase an opponent straight on but to instead circle and use the jab as a measuring tool to gauge distance and get inside. Now I've personally been really bad at applying this theory (a few black eyes as evidence) but regardless, if your post was true then I've now trained at two different clubs that are doing what 90% of other gyms are not....

I seriously doubt that.

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There's oodles of responses here claiming the reverse... that the Gracie's can really be stopped... that BJJ is too much for strikers without some 'specialized' training... by MT grappling teachers now doubt....
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Why don't you give Ronda a call like Floyd M and offer your services.... MOreover, I said I thought Ronda would be smarter in concert with you; and my posts got disagree & dislike.... Talking out of both sides of one's mouth....
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And you guys bust on Tarverdyan for promoting his fighter and his business...

 

[ShotoNoob]

SO what you're saying, then, is that MMA training is wrong for MMA?

Interesting.,

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No, that's what you are saying,,, and isolating out what Tarverdyan does as the 'problem' ' cause Honda got creamed by a STRIKER (YEA, HOLLY!).
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Like Jake Ellenberger going on record saying pre-Wonderboy fight.... "hhee, karate that's funny." His MMA Training was "RIGHT" for MMA. And Jake has a decent MMA record. Against Wonderboy.....
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Roll eyes is right... "hey Shotonoob, you're funny." Your comment is right in sync with promotion... as was Ellenberger's really brilliant on that score...

 

[Dinkydoo]

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There's oodles of responses here claiming the reverse... that the Gracie's can really be stopped... that BJJ is too much for strikers without some 'specialized' training... by MT grappling teachers now doubt....
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Why don't you give Ronda a call like Floyd M and offer your services.... MOreover, I said I thought Ronda would be smarter in concert with you; and my posts got disagree & dislike.... Talking out of both sides of one's mouth....
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And you guys bust on Tarverdyan for promoting his fighter and his business...

I'm not saying that I would have ANYTHING helpful to say to Rhonda Rousey in terms of improving her fight game....you're the one who's claiming to know how 90% of combat sport gyms train. All I'm saying is that from my experience of actually training at clubs teaching combat sports, I've found what you've said to be wrong - in general, people aren't taught to spar linearly, unless it's part of a specific strategy (which RR's recent fight evidently was)

 

[ShotoNoob]

1) Holm had obviously prepared herself very well for defending the clinch, the headlock, and the armbar long enough to escape.

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Yes... I think your details are spot on.... Holly was prepared to defend grappling.... HOnda's sub-par performance though.... greased the wheel of those Holm defenses...

2) By the time Rousey had gotten her first clinch, she had already been hit hard enough to be hurt and at least mildly concussed. That will take some polish off of anybody's technique.

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Holly smacked the crap outta Honda.... literally. My striker over grappler thesis all along.... Proven by your post... thx Tony.....

 

[Dinkydoo]

And generally yes, grapplers do tend to be a problem for anyone without some kind of grappling skillset. A high level striker can pose the same danger to someone who only knows how to wrestle, but there are differences.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Everyone is so quick to blame Tarverdyan. Yet what he trains is identical to 90% of what MMA camps are doing.... Some exceptions other than Jackson exist. Nonetheless you are now criticizing precisely what I have been criticizing about MMA striking training all along.
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Edmond Tarverdyan is now just the lighting rod 'cause Honda bombed.... MMA conventional training and Honda herself deserve the lionshare of blame... not Taverdyan.... that's the scapegoat easy way out for MT.

I can't speak for others, but my dislike of Taverdyan's coaching isn't based on any in-depth analysis of his training methods. It's based on the fact that he isn't honest and realistic with his fighter. Leave aside the fact that before the fight he was claiming that Ronda's boxing was good enough for her to be a world champion boxer. Leave aside the fact that after the first round he told Ronda she was doing great. After the fight, he said that he didn't think Holly Holm had gotten the better of Ronda is the striking department!!!

I think that's proof enough that either he's completely delusional and incompetent or else he's just so used to blowing smoke up Ronda's *** that he can't stop doing it even when it makes him look like an idiot. A coach needs to provide his fighters with honest, accurate feedback on how they are doing and what they need to work on. That's one of their most important jobs.

 

[JowGaWolf]

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Ok, by your sparring adaptation. But your 1st sentence defies traditional CMA.
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In terms of the tactics you want to use in application & present in class.... I validate your application....\
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How are you & boxing brother making out?

The boxing guy is Missing in action. I haven't seen him for a while now. I'm doing good as far as kung fu goes. I discovered how to use another technique and when to use it, so I'm really excited about it. However, my kung fu other kung fu brother isn't so sure that I have the right deployment of it. I saw doubt in his eyes when I told him that I finally understood the technique. I'm pretty sure that I have it right because he was wide open and I knew that my next possible strike was that specific technique. I should have just hit him the punch so he wouldn't have any doubt. lol. But I'm definitely looking foward to using it again but I need to make sure that we have our cups on, because the position of my body felt like the punch would have hit his groin and not his stomach.

 

[ShotoNoob]

I'm not saying that I would have ANYTHING helpful to say to Rhonda Rousey in terms of improving her fight game....you're the one who's claiming to know how 90% of combat sport gyms train.

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Claim? silly.[/quote]
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I'll go a step farther. I believe their is MMA coaching talent among the MT who could improve Honda's MMA. Caveat, though, see my reply below... And I too have been critical of Tarverdyan.... But this was before the Rousey loss and I'm not going to dump on Tarverdyan for all the blame.... and for actually running an MMA training camp that fits with MMA conventions....
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All I'm saying is that from my experience of actually training at clubs teaching combat sports, I've found what you've said to be wrong - in general, people aren't taught to spar linearly, unless it's part of a specific strategy (which RR's recent fight evidently was)

Ha, why all the double negatives? I'm not trying to sell myself to Greg Jackson.... I have some pissed off MMA types @ my dojo, most calmed down compared to my arrival.... Like HOnda, don't take losing well ... to a Laszlo-kinda guy....
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Moreover.... and proves the low quality of responses I get including new guy here who's trying so hard to understand & have patience with my material.... ya'll talking to 12year old prospective students...???
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The Moreover is: What Judo teaches the principle tactic of moving in 1 direction?

 

[ShotoNoob]

I can't speak for others, but my dislike of Taverdyan's coaching isn't based on any in-depth analysis of his training methods. It's based on the fact that he isn't honest and realistic with his fighter. Leave aside the fact that before the fight he was claiming that Ronda's boxing was good enough for her to be a world champion boxer. Leave aside the fact that after the first round he told Ronda she was doing great. After the fight, he said that he didn't think Holly Holm had gotten the better of Ronda is the striking department!!!

I think that's proof enough that either he's completely delusional and incompetent or else he's just so used to blowing smoke up Ronda's *** that he can't stop doing it even when it makes him look like an idiot. A coach needs to provide his fighters with honest, accurate feedback on how they are doing and what they need to work on. That's one of their most important jobs.

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Come on Tony... you're more competent than that... Suddenly, Edmond's promotion isn't 'professional.' Listen to Greg Jackson admit to making a mistake.... he always dodges direct responsibility....he's just smooth (tangential) & friendly about it....
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Everybody in the MMA business has to promote, is expected to promote. MMA people say dumb-stuff all the time.... see my Jake Ellenberger quote... still valid promotion.
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So Edmond is not slick at it. At least his official face is loyal to Honda... how real, Honda's mom thinks he isn't and if I were Ronda, I'd also have Mom in my corner....

 

[Tony Dismukes]

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Well I don't know what to call it, then. To me, you are very knowledgeable about the grappling arts, such as BJJ & Judo. You've worked hard @ getting accomplished in your style; I believe you are an accomplished practitioner.
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See Tony, now you are validating my opinion about you.
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Thanks for the kind words. I'll own up to having a bit of expertise on grappling in general. However your question was specifically on the best approach for fighting an elusive striker with high-level evasive footwork. The stuff I listed is just fundamental concepts. A true expert will understand all the small details that make or break the application of those concepts.

 

[ShotoNoob]

The boxing guy is Missing in action. I haven't seen him for a while now.

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What a truly great MMA presentation you two made. Hope to see him back... Advice: don't rough him up too much... that 'ego' thing you know.

I'm doing good as far as kung fu goes. I discovered how to use another technique and when to use it, so I'm really excited about it. However, my kung fu other kung fu brother isn't so sure that I have the right deployment of it. I saw doubt in his eyes when I told him that I finally understood the technique. I'm pretty sure that I have it right because he was wide open and I knew that my next possible strike was that specific technique.

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Well at the end of the day... it's you against the opponent.... not your "other kung fu brother."

I should have just hit him the punch so he wouldn't have any doubt. lol. But I'm definitely looking foward to using it again but I need to make sure that we have our cups on, because the position of my body felt like the punch would have hit his groin and not his stomach.

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Go for it.... when I succeed, like at MT... sometimes I get, "you were lucky." LOL.

 

[Dinkydoo]

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Claim? silly.

?? So you've personal experience of all fighting gyms and their approach to training ??

I'll go a step farther. I believe their is MMA coaching talent among the MT who could improve Honda's MMA.
Caveat, though, see my reply below... And I too have been critical of Tarverdyan.... But this was before the Rousey loss and I'm not going to dump on Tarverdyan for all the blame.... and for actually running an MMA training camp that fits with MMA conventions....

What conventions are those?

Ha, why all the double negatives? I'm not trying to sell myself to Greg Jackson.... I have some pissed off MMA types @ my dojo, most calmed down compared to my arrival.... Like HOnda, don't take losing well ... to a Laszlo-kinda guy....
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Moreover.... and proves the low quality of responses I get including new guy here who's trying so hard to understand & have patience with my material.... ya'll talking to 12year old prospective students...???

I don't think you're in any position to be commenting on not being able to decipher another MT member's post. Stones and glass houses spring to mind...

The Moreover is: What Judo teaches the principle tactic of moving in 1 direction?

No idea what that is, having never studied judo from a judo teacher. We're talking about having an MMA fight with a boxing and kickboxing champion and certainly in those disciplines, linear movement isn't heavily encouraged

 

[ShotoNoob]

Thanks for the kind words. I'll own up to having a bit of expertise on grappling in general. However your question was specifically on the best approach for fighting an elusive striker with high-level evasive footwork. The stuff I listed is just fundamental concepts. A true expert will understand all the small details that make or break the application of those concepts.

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Sure Tony.
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The interesting thing about the Holm win..... in complete concert with my philosophy.... and apparently in complete line with Jackson / Winky & Co. for Holm.... was expert execution of kihon technique. READ BASIC... Holm officially affirmed this about her training regimen post-fight. Publicly....
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In traditional karate, the small details are (incorporated) in understanding the mental discipline it takes overall to execute on a higher plane that Holly Holm can attain by boxing principles....
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Anyhow, I have no doubt whatsoever that you know grappling and the key important principles of your approach & how to train them.... your posts demonstrate so, IMHO.

 

[ShotoNoob]

No idea what that is, having never studied judo from a judo teacher. We're talking about having an MMA fight with a boxing and kickboxing champion and certainly in those disciplines, linear movement isn't heavily encouraged

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Then come back to class prepared.... applies 2x to your other three comments...

 

[Buka]

Ronda's coach did not prepare her for Holm. Not one little bit. Ronda showed no clue in how to cut down the ring or move her head off center line. The only thing she did well was block with her face.

I love Ronda Rousey. I love her even more now than I did before she got her butt whooped. But with her far reaching resources and ample financial means, she has to get a better striking trainer. Lord knows she works hard enough. Or at least used to before all the media frame.

I'm rootin' for her all the way.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Well at the end of the day... it's you against the opponent.... not your "other kung fu brother."

That's true. But I do have a specific person that I'm targeted. Not in a bad way. He trains at a Sanda school and they say he's really fast. I want to see just how fast he is.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Ronda's coach did not prepare her for Holm. Not one little bit. Ronda showed no clue in how to cut down the ring or move her head off center line. The only thing she did well was block with her face.

I love Ronda Rousey. I love her even more now than I did before she got her butt whooped. But with her far reaching resources and ample financial means, she has to get a better striking trainer. Lord knows she works hard enough. Or at least used to before all the media frame.

I'm rootin' for her all the way.

Your statement about training hard is what got me the most because we see it on a non professional level where good people train hard in low quality schools or in fake martial arts. Hard training is useless without correct training.