this is a sad state of affairs

[Dirty Dog]

I thought all your research had possibly been at the local level. Thanks for clarifying that.

So... you truely don't see why doing "research" on peoples opinions of taekwondo at a taekwondo event will tend to bias the results?
You know, I bet if you survey people at a bar, they'll have lots of good things to say about booze. Interview people on certain street corners and they'll have all kinds of nice things to say about meth.

I suspect you know this already, and you're being willfully obtuse.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I thought all your research had possibly been at the local level. Thanks for clarifying that.

If I want to know what the broader martial arts communities view of tkd is Im certainly not going to ask tkdists. It appears that makes complete sense to others but not to you for some reason. It certainly does clear up why you have such a "rosy" view of things though.

 

[MSUTKD]

No need to send me a link, I just found the rules on the WTF site. I did find the Yunmooson term. It was used in the creative Poomsae rules, stating basically that the contestant in creative Poomsae could choose their own yunmooson, or direction line.

What I am curious of is that I did not see that term used in connection with the traditional Poomsae, and, the materials I have from the WTF only refer to traditional Poomsae, so, is yunmooson a word used for just creative Poomsae, where the line generally does not correspond to a Chinese character and the term Poomsaeseon is reserved for traditional Poomsae only, where a set meaning is found in the Chinese character?

Or maybe they are just interchangeable terms?

I would consider yun mu seon to be a relatively technical term and poomsae seon a colloquial one, so you're right pretty interchangeable. The reason it is not brought up in the traditional section is because in those poomsae the yun mu seon is fixed; no need to bring it up. The definition of yun mu seon, like em bu sen, is performing martial line. I hear lots of discussion on it purpose but as you said, it is used for creating a literary object embedded in the form, i.e. Chinese Character or symbol.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Actually you can argue with the name. The original name for the art, as announced by ROK President Syngman Rhee, was "taekkyon QUOTE]

I disagree with your statement. While president Rhee may have exclaimed something like "That's taekkyon" after watching a demo, or whatever the Korean equivalent of a similar statement is, that is a far cry from establishing that this should be the name for the Korean Martial Art.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Its not my experience either. Google "taekwondo" and have a read about what the larger community think of tkd, I honestly dont think there is another martial art currently shrouded in so much negativity. .

Also attend various open MA events, conventions, seminars, competitions etc.
o

 

[dancingalone]

That is interesting, can you share any links that show it?

I'm not aware of any goju-ryu websites that have pictures of the handstrikes along with the names. It is essentially spreading the area between your thumb and index finger to form a wide 'mouth' to strike with. The way my sensei teaches it, the mouth is somewhat more open than a c-shape. He often compared it to an old arrow he had seen from centuries ago where the arrow head likewise was shaped somewhat like a letter c.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

does it not become an org issue though? Whats the point of an org?

Completely different subject and one that has nothing to do with any of what I posted.

Or you have an incorrect understanding of what an organization's function is. Frankly, I think that many of the people who spend their time org. bashing have a skewed understanding of what an organization's function is.

 

[dancingalone]

Completely different subject and one that has nothing to do with any of what I posted.

Very likely.

Or you have an incorrect understanding of what an organization's function is. Frankly, I think that many of the people who spend their time org. bashing have a skewed understanding of what an organization's function is.

The word organization in of itself is very generic.

1.	the act of organizing or the state of being organized
2.	an organized structure or whole
3.	a business or administrative concern united and constructed for a particular end
4.	a body of administrative officials, as of a political party, a government department, etc
5.	order or system; method

There's really no reason why martial arts organizations could not have some level of ongoing testing and review to certify and verify competence of their members. If they wanted it, that is.

For the record, I like some of the things the KKW does already, such as the Foreign Instructor's Course along with the requirement to test in person in Korea for 8th and 9th dan in front of the kwan heads.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Its not my experience either. Google "taekwondo" and have a read about what the larger community think of tkd, I honestly dont think there is another martial art currently shrouded in so much negativity. That is one good thing about large orgs though, you can become so entenched in that org with your head in the sand and create your own perfect little tkd world and close your eyes to all else that is going on.

Hardly compelling; I can just as easily say this:

That's the one good thing about being independent though, you can become so entrenched in your little bubble with your head in the sand and create your own perfect little TKD world and close your eyes to all else that's going on.

It is fact that the art of tkd is losing credibility fast, its just whether or not people want to admit it. The only reason numbers grow in tkd is because no one does any research before signing up to martial arts and by the time they realise what they are doing they are too entrenched in the system to change. The other reason is pure saturation, there is a tkd dojang at the end of every street. As Ive said many times, just because something is popular doesnt make it good, too many people for too long have lived by the rule that "tkd must be good, its the fastest growing ma in the world". By that logic, mcdonalds is a good restaurant. Im just so glad there are still some reputable tkd clubs out there doing the right thing and teaching real martial arts.

While popularity does not make something necesarilly 'good,' I also think that most of what you ascribe to organizations is again, at a school level. People become entrenched in the world of the school and 'sensei says thus and so, so that is how it is...' is how they form their opinions.

Remember, the only contact that 90% of those in martial arts have with any greater organization is through those that directly teach them. You can take away the organization and the dynamic will remain.

What you don't seem to understand is that there is a ballanced way to look at this. It isn't an either/or with regards to organizations. I have trained in both independent schools and affiliated schools. I am the owner of an an independent school. Yay for me. I can tell my students they fight like the shinsengumi they are and they will all believe me. I can tell them that I train in a secret style of kendo handed down by Musashi and they will believe me. Why? Because they have no involvement with an organization or greater kendo community to tell them differently. Independent schools are just soooo much better than those organizational school in that regard aren't they?

I do look into how TKD is perceived and I don't just talk to TKD people. And I live in a very populous and very educated area. I gather with a good number of people who are MA-ists in a variety of styles from mma to wushu to tai chi to bagua to aikido to BJJ to Japanese jujutsu, to koryu kenjutsu to hapkido to historical WMA. I also gather with a lot of people who have their kids in various MA schools, some TKD and some not. And I gather with people who have no kids an little MA contact.

I just don't see the 'taekwondo is losing credibility' they way that people on the internet like to portray it. Aside from saying, "I googled it/read a blog/its all over B-shido," where are you getting this idea that TKD is losing credibility from?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Very likely.




The word organization in of itself is very generic.

1.	the act of organizing or the state of being organized
2.	an organized structure or whole
3.	a business or administrative concern united and constructed for a particular end
4.	a body of administrative officials, as of a political party, a government department, etc
5.	order or system; method

There's really no reason why martial arts organizations could not have some level of ongoing testing and review to certify and verify competence of their members. If they wanted it, that is.

For the record, I like some of the things the KKW does already, such as the Foreign Instructor's Course along with the requirement to test in person in Korea for 8th and 9th dan in front of the kwan heads.

When I say that people have a skewed understanding, I mean that they have these ideas that being part of an organization means that everything that is wrong or problematic in their eyes is a result of the org. They either think that the org is ramming bad stuff down their throats and telling them how to run their schools or not controlling member schools to their satisfaction.

The fact that both criticisms are often leveled simultaneously tells me that those leveling the criticism are not really all that familiar with the org or orgs that they are bashing; if you don't want them telling you how to run your school then don't complain when the org isn't telling member schools how to operate.

People want to critque the sparring rules. Well, those rules are unimportant if you aren't competing, and those who beat the drum the loudest seem to be the 'this is a martial art and not a sport' crowd. Fine. If sport has no part of what they do, then why are they complaining? On the other hand, there isn't anything stopping those who do compete and blast the orgs from organizing tournaments themselves. I mean they do seem to be in regular communciation via the internet.

But that requires a ton of work that they either don't have the time to do or don't know how to begin doing, so they don't.

If all of these folks who bash the orgs would get together, they could put together their own organization, formalize curriculum, and present a untited front, promoting their 'real' taekwondo and saving the masses from those fakes/frauds/mcdojos/whatever. But they don't. And they won't.

Because again, that requires a ton of work and effort that they either haven't the time or resouces for or don't know how to begin doing, so they don't.

Or none of them can agree on enough to join with anyone, so the only thing they can do is band together on the web to slam people who do put the time, effort, and energy into building something up, often at great personal sacrifice.

 

[dancingalone]

When I say that people have a skewed understanding, I mean that they have these ideas that being part of an organization means that everything that is wrong or problematic in their eyes is a result of the org. They either think that the org is ramming bad stuff down their throats and telling them how to run their schools or not controlling member schools to their satisfaction.

The fact that both criticisms are often leveled simultaneously tells me that those leveling the criticism are not really all that familiar with the org or orgs that they are bashing; if you don't want them telling you how to run your school then don't complain when the org isn't telling member schools how to operate.

Yes, it doesn't make sense to lodge both charges at the same time. To be fair though, I don't recall seeing anyone here doing that. The bulk of the vitriol directed at the KKW by the likes of TF has to do with Olympic rules sparring. He also is fairly down on the KKW due to 1 year dans. Any ire from other people really has more to do with poor management ongoing with the US NGB, not with the KKW itself other than a vague desire that they do more to rein in the NGB.

My thought is that many on this board, without necessarily knowing what it entails, would welcome a stronger presence from the KKW in the daily running of their dojang. (Although I am not sure their sabum agree!) Things like a more comprehensive KKW-endorsed curriculum or a stronger credentialing process for low dans and possibly even geup ranks.

An organization can have many operating rules to follow along with a strong member certification and ongoing maintenance/verification process. While more intrusive, arguably this makes it a credible force to further the interests of its members as well as their united cause. Or it can go in the opposite direction and have minimal regulations and minimal membership review and thus be more of a networking and friendship group.

Which is the KKW I wonder? Which is it supposed to be - which should it be if it is not one already?

People want to critque the sparring rules. Well, those rules are unimportant if you aren't competing, and those who beat the drum the loudest seem to be the 'this is a martial art and not a sport' crowd. Fine. If sport has no part of what they do, then why are they complaining? On the other hand, there isn't anything stopping those who do compete and blast the orgs from organizing tournaments themselves. I mean they do seem to be in regular communciation via the internet.

I believe TF has said many times in one way or another that he doesn't like Olympic sparring representing TKD in general to the masses.

But that requires a ton of work that they either don't have the time to do or don't know how to begin doing, so they don't.

If all of these folks who bash the orgs would get together, they could put together their own organization, formalize curriculum, and present a untited front, promoting their 'real' taekwondo and saving the masses from those fakes/frauds/mcdojos/whatever. But they don't. And they won't.

Because again, that requires a ton of work and effort that they either haven't the time or resouces for or don't know how to begin doing, so they don't.

Or none of them can agree on enough to join with anyone, so the only thing they can do is band together on the web to slam people who do put the time, effort, and energy into building something up, often at great personal sacrifice.

Careful. Your joiner bias is showing again.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Yes, it doesn't make sense to lodge both charges at the same time. To be fair though, I don't recall seeing anyone here doing that. The bulk of the vitriol directed at the KKW by the likes of TF has to do with Olympic rules sparring. He also is fairly down on the KKW due to 1 year dans. Any ire from other people really has more to do with poor management ongoing with the US NGB, not with the KKW itself other than a vague desire that they do more to rein in the NGB.

Not so much recently, but at one point, the 'KKW isn't gonna tell me how to run my school' was a common rant against the organization and the sentiment is still made periodically. And those who beat that drum the loudest are also the same ones that want the Kukkiwon to ennact and enforce policies to curb errant school owners.

An organization can have many operating rules to follow along with a strong member certification and ongoing maintenance/verification process. While more intrusive, arguably this makes it a credible force to further the interests of its members as well as their united cause. Or it can go in the opposite direction and have minimal regulations and minimal membership review and thus be more of a networking and friendship group.

Which is the KKW I wonder? Which is it supposed to be - which should it be if it is not one already?

I think that it falls somewhere in between... or perhaps completely outside? There are no member schools; the KKW does not certify schools and school owners don't register their club with the KKW. The WTF also has no member schools and club owners do not register their clubs with the WTF. I do think that club owners can register their club with USAT, however, but I am not sure of this. Regardless, it is not a requirement.

The KKW sets standards and measurements essentially. Kind of like a TKD SAE. They offer continuing education in the form of instructor courses and offer a mechanism for certification and registry thereof. The process of carrying out the certification is left to the individual school owners; it isn't like kendo where ikyu and above are organizational gradings that require organizational representatives to be on hand. This is usually the area where detractors complain about lack of oversight, but would also be appalled at the thought of USAT reps being on hand, or 'foreign organizational officials' being on hand to administer gradings.

I believe TF has said many times in one way or another that he doesn't like Olympic sparring representing TKD in general to the masses.

He and others. But given that 'the masses' don't get to watch taekwondo during the Olympics because it isn't televised, it really doesn't represent anything to the masses. It is the local schools that represent taekwondo to the masses. So in essence, there is more credence to the arguments that one bad school makes all of them look bad, though I don't fully buy into that either.

Careful. Your joiner bias is showing again.

Not so much a joiner as looking at it through a ballanced lens.

My former kendo and hapkido GM was one of those who broke off and started his own 'federations' and might I add, with a lot of prodding from people that he probably should not have been listening to at the time.

When I separated from him, I aligned myself with the mainstream kendo curriculum, though I did not join the AUSKF. I have had some communication with the GNEUSKF (Greater Northeastern United States Kendo Federation) and have met with the people that I was directed to, but it has not gone any further at this point. I can definitely see the benefits in a competitive art to being part of the larger organization. At the same time, I am presently content in my independent status. I do, however make sure that my students are aware that I am independent and that if they wish to go to competitions, they would do well to connect with the kendo club in Rockville, which is a part of the GNEUSKF.

I have also become a part of Tenshinsho Jigen Ryu (paid dues and regularly attend and train, not just cross training). My former GM had a kenjutsu element to his curriculum, a factor that I liked, but he was not himself a kenjutsu instructor nor part of any ryu.

As far as hapkido goes, I joined a Moo Moo Kwan dojang, though mainly because I really like the school owner. She could have been independent and I would have still trained under her.

 

[lifespantkd]

There are no member schools; the KKW does not certify schools and school owners don't register their club with the KKW.

The Kukkiwon has the "Kukkiwon Membership System": http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/eng/front...629&category=1&pageNum=1&searchKey=&searchVal=

I'll start a new thread for those wishing to discuss it.

Cynthia

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

The Kukkiwon has the "Kukkiwon Membership System": http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/eng/front...629&category=1&pageNum=1&searchKey=&searchVal=

I'll start a new thread for those wishing to discuss it.

Cynthia

Definitely do, please. That is new; apparently about a year and two months months new. Interesting.

 

[puunui]

....................so Tae Kwon do, literally foot fist way doesnt actually mean foot fist way

ok, clearly you are dealing with a reality that the rest of us are not invited into.

I'm not making this up. Go read General Choi's autobiography for more information.

 

[mastercole]

I'm not making this up. Go read General Choi's autobiography for more information.

Imagine that

 

[puunui]

we call it "American TKD" here in Texas.

Why associate with taekwondo at all? After all even you said you do not practice any korean forms, that the ones you do practice are "re-arranged japanese forms stolen by korean martial artists who were shotokan stylists and didnt have the education or skill to come up with thier own material". Perhaps a better name for your style would be "American Rearranged Shotokan".

some call it Tex Kwon Do

No wonder you have such a hard time with the wtf competition format -- you guys took out the tae and therefore the kicks in your art in favor of punches.

we dont go to the olympics, but we can punch you in the face all day long

Sounds like karate to me. The more you explain about what you do, the more it sounds like "American Rearranged Shotokan".

 

[puunui]

Translation:
I was with TKD people, and they all liked TKD so i find your opinion less than convincing..

EXCEPT THEY WERE ALL TKD STUDENTS OR RELATIVES OF TKD STUDENTS

DUH

That's right, 70 million taekwondo practitioners can't be all wrong. Or maybe they are, in your opinion. Why search google when we can see how popular taekwondo is worldwide. Even MT acknowledges that taekwondo the popularity of taekwondo. I can understand why other styles would criticize taekwondo - it kills their potential student base and their livelihood.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Why associate with taekwondo at all? After all even you said you do not practice any korean forms, that the ones you do practice are "re-arranged japanese forms stolen by korean martial artists who were shotokan stylists and didnt have the education or skill to come up with thier own material". Perhaps a better name for your style would be "American Rearranged Shotokan".

I suspect that that is the name that his instructors identified with their curriculum.

No wonder you have such a hard time with the wtf competition format -- you guys took out the tae and therefore the kicks in your art in favor of punches.

If I'm not mistaken, somewhere in his lineage somebody was influenced by western boxing, which I was told several years ago (cannot remember by who; might have been Exile or Dancingalone, but it's been over three years) in a thread that that was what distinguished their 'American Taekwondo' from KKW and Chang Hon. Kicks are not removed, but the high kicking is not as emphasized and there is, as I recall, more of a ballance between hand/arm techniques and foot/leg techniques.

Sounds like karate to me. The more you explain about what you do, the more it sounds like "American Rearranged Shotokan".

Actually, it sounds like an independent school using Chang Hon forms, which I believe are open source.

Whether or not it is really taekwondo kind of depends on how you are using the term I suppose. This has probably been asked of you before, and probably by me, but do you view taekwondo as more of an umbrella term or as a term for a specific art?

There are a good number of people here who view it as an umbrella term for various Korean language striking systems that trace their lineage back to either the ITF, the KKW, or to one of the kwans prior to the formation of those bodies.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

That's right, 70 million taekwondo practitioners can't be all wrong.

There was an Elvis Presley album with a similar title.View attachment $50,000,000 elvis fans.jpg