this is a sad state of affairs

[Twin Fist]

....................so Tae Kwon do, literally foot fist way doesnt actually mean foot fist way

ok, clearly you are dealing with a reality that the rest of us are not invited into. Except maybe for that cole fellow, and you are welcome to him.

have fun dude......


/eyeroll

Actually you can argue with the name. The original name for the art, as announced by ROK President Syngman Rhee, was "taekkyon". Because hanja (chinese characters) were important at the time, a search was conducted for the hanja for taekkyon. There is none. So they went with the closest thing they could find, taekwon, which was supposed to stand for taekkyon. So really if you wish to be technical about it, the name of the art really is taekkyon or taekkyondo, not taekwondo. And beyond that, the intent of the name was for taekkyon, not "foot fist way". So there goes your "fist", if you are talking about focusing in on the name only.

 

[mastercole]

I think you mean yun mu seon, same a embussen in karate.

I believe they are basically the same though "Poomsaeseon" would be current terminology, according to WTF and Kukkiwon. Maybe a better visual for readers would be the Chinese character for mountain; shan or san. Keumgang's Poomsae line is in the shape of this character, Koryo moves along the one for scholar.

 

[mastercole]

While that is very interesting and I appreciate the information, my information on the tiger mouth strike didn't come filtered through taekwondo. The technique is found in karate. I use the term koko uchi, but I believe some styles do call it something else as well.

That is interesting, can you share any links that show it?

 

[MSUTKD]

Actually yun mu seon is the current and old terminology. Case in point, the current WTF Poomsae Competition rules, article 9 - 2.1.

 

[Twin Fist]

Most martial arts practitioners that I meet in person have a great deal of respect for taekwondo and ask me a lot of questions about it. They really don't know all that much about and are happy for some first hand info. Most people looking at MA schools also seem to think that TKD is just peachy; they keep signing up and in greater numbers than at schools teaching other arts.

this isnt my experience AT ALL

you know who is signing up for TKD? kids

the fastest growing org? the ATA

And I am not the one ripping part of the art out, the WTF-o-philes are the ones advocating that. I want TKD to become and remain a vibrant, complete, MARTIAL art

i happen to think the sparring rules you described earlier are the best i have heard of that allow the safest use of the widest range of TKD's elements.

as for the rest Daniel remember, one person teaching or doing cheese makes us all look cheesy by association

think on that

 

[Twin Fist]

we call it "American TKD" here in Texas.

some call it Tex Kwon Do

we dont go to the olympics, but we can punch you in the face all day long

Which you don't practice right? Therefore, what you do isn't taekwondo, but rather some sort of reorganized shotokan, if you follow your logic through. Sounds like you need to change the name of what you do to something else. Perhaps "modified shotokan karate" would be appropriate, since shotokan allows punches and kicks to the head, which is what you like.

 

[mastercole]

Actually yun mu seon is the current and old terminology. Case in point, the current WTF Poomsae Competition rules, article 9 - 2.1.

That's interesting. Poomsaeseon (Poomsae line) is a term commonly used by the WTF in written material in regard to Poomsae, actually I have not run across that term for some time. Can you send me a copy of the rules, or point me to a link? I'd like to read more about them. Thanks!

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Groan. This is how my teenagers talk. Honestly, you make valid points or points that are worthy of discussion, but when you intersperse it with this sort of phrasing, you detract from those points.


First dan being addressed as master I really do not care for either. I'm not going to get upset over it though.

BBs that cannot punch is not org specific but school specific. I hold a first dan ranking in Kukkiwon taekwondo and believe me, I can punch. I've seen ten year olds in Kukkiwon taekwondo that can punch very nicely too. I've also seen twenty year olds whose punches look like wet noodles thrashing about. And I've seen it in both KKW schools and in non KKW and non TKD schools. That is an instruction issue and not an org issue.

Not going to get into the history discussion or what I think Glenn endorses in regards to it. I will only say that the history that is currently on the website looks okay. It isn't meant to be an exhaustive, detailed history, and is probably way more than they needed to post, but it does the job and it does nicely segregate modern taekwondo from earlier KMA while still connecting them.


You are so focused with arguing about the sparring rules that you are overlooking the rest of the art. Sparring is only a part of Kukkiwon taekwondo and punches are a part of it.

Regarding the name, tae-kwon-do, if memory serves, it means to the way of trampling or crushing with the feet and striking or smashing with the fists. The description that Glenn gave of wearing down the body with powerful blows from the fist (destruction) so that the opponent is set up to struck by the foot (trample or crush) seems to fit that description, whether or not the punches are scored (currently they are), so I don't see why you go further than simply disliking the rule set.

I do happen to think that much of what you and I see as being 'wrong' with taekwondo is really McDojo-ism and belt factories, which are not limited to taekwondo. Outside of MA circles, most people really have no idea.

It's kind of like a good friend of mine who teaches guitar and has been playinhg for years. He tends to want to educate the audience when he plays out and has a lot of criticism of music today. Are his criticisms valid? Sure. Is he educating the audience? Not one bit. He plays overly complicated stuff that only other musicians who know music theory at his level will appreciate. Then he has a hard time getting gigs and gets upset that Nirvana got popular playing 2.5 chords with no solos.

Most martial arts practitioners that I meet in person have a great deal of respect for taekwondo and ask me a lot of questions about it. They really don't know all that much about and are happy for some first hand info. Most people looking at MA schools also seem to think that TKD is just peachy; they keep signing up and in greater numbers than at schools teaching other arts.

does it not become an org issue though? Whats the point of an org?

 

[ralphmcpherson]

this isnt my experience AT ALL

you know who is signing up for TKD? kids

the fastest growing org? the ATA

And I am not the one ripping part of the art out, the WTF-o-philes are the ones advocating that. I want TKD to become and remain a vibrant, complete, MARTIAL art

i happen to think the sparring rules you described earlier are the best i have heard of that allow the safest use of the widest range of TKD's elements.

as for the rest Daniel remember, one person teaching or doing cheese makes us all look cheesy by association

think on that

Its not my experience either. Google "taekwondo" and have a read about what the larger community think of tkd, I honestly dont think there is another martial art currently shrouded in so much negativity. That is one good thing about large orgs though, you can become so entenched in that org with your head in the sand and create your own perfect little tkd world and close your eyes to all else that is going on. It is fact that the art of tkd is losing credibility fast, its just whether or not people want to admit it. The only reason numbers grow in tkd is because no one does any research before signing up to martial arts and by the time they realise what they are doing they are too entrenched in the system to change. The other reason is pure saturation, there is a tkd dojang at the end of every street. As Ive said many times, just because something is popular doesnt make it good, too many people for too long have lived by the rule that "tkd must be good, its the fastest growing ma in the world". By that logic, mcdonalds is a good restaurant. Im just so glad there are still some reputable tkd clubs out there doing the right thing and teaching real martial arts.

 

[mastercole]

Its not my experience either. Google "taekwondo" and have a read about what the larger community think of tkd, I honestly dont think there is another martial art currently shrouded in so much negativity. That is one good thing about large orgs though, you can become so entenched in that org with your head in the sand and create your own perfect little tkd world and close your eyes to all else that is going on. It is fact that the art of tkd is losing credibility fast, its just whether or not people want to admit it. The only reason numbers grow in tkd is because no one does any research before signing up to martial arts and by the time they realise what they are doing they are too entrenched in the system to change. The other reason is pure saturation, there is a tkd dojang at the end of every street. As Ive said many times, just because something is popular doesnt make it good, too many people for too long have lived by the rule that "tkd must be good, its the fastest growing ma in the world". By that logic, mcdonalds is a good restaurant. Im just so glad there are still some reputable tkd clubs out there doing the right thing and teaching real martial arts.

I disagree with you. I travel the world and never find negativity toward Taekwondo. What I find is a great interest from the multitude of people who attend international Taekwondo events. I do find negativity on the internet coming from behind a keyboard from people who do live in a true "perfect little world" and never venture out of that safe, protected little world. A perfect little world would be the one small and unknown tiny world, outside of the 80 million members and 200 nations. My experience is not from some backyard BBQ at the Budweiser Hoe Down, but that is just me, not everyone.

 

[Twin Fist]

you prob deal only with other WTF-o-phile kukki-sheeps

 

[Twin Fist]

quoted for truth

Its not my experience either. Google "taekwondo" and have a read about what the larger community think of tkd, I honestly dont think there is another martial art currently shrouded in so much negativity. That is one good thing about large orgs though, you can become so entenched in that org with your head in the sand and create your own perfect little tkd world and close your eyes to all else that is going on. It is fact that the art of tkd is losing credibility fast, its just whether or not people want to admit it. The only reason numbers grow in tkd is because no one does any research before signing up to martial arts and by the time they realise what they are doing they are too entrenched in the system to change. The other reason is pure saturation, there is a tkd dojang at the end of every street. As Ive said many times, just because something is popular doesnt make it good, too many people for too long have lived by the rule that "tkd must be good, its the fastest growing ma in the world". By that logic, mcdonalds is a good restaurant. Im just so glad there are still some reputable tkd clubs out there doing the right thing and teaching real martial arts.

 

[mastercole]

Actually yun mu seon is the current and old terminology. Case in point, the current WTF Poomsae Competition rules, article 9 - 2.1.

No need to send me a link, I just found the rules on the WTF site. I did find the Yunmooson term. It was used in the creative Poomsae rules, stating basically that the contestant in creative Poomsae could choose their own yunmooson, or direction line.

What I am curious of is that I did not see that term used in connection with the traditional Poomsae, and, the materials I have from the WTF only refer to traditional Poomsae, so, is yunmooson a word used for just creative Poomsae, where the line generally does not correspond to a Chinese character and the term Poomsaeseon is reserved for traditional Poomsae only, where a set meaning is found in the Chinese character?

Or maybe they are just interchangeable terms?

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I disagree with you. I travel the world and never find negativity toward Taekwondo. What I find is a great interest from the multitude of people who attend international Taekwondo events. I do find negativity on the internet coming from behind a keyboard from people who do live in a true "perfect little world" and never venture out of that safe, protected little world. A perfect little world would be the one small and unknown tiny world, outside of the 80 million members and 200 nations. My experience is not from some backyard BBQ at the Budweiser Hoe Down, but that is just me, not everyone.

so what your saying is your info comes from international tkd events where you typically only run into like minded people. To me, its 'bbq at the budweiser hoe down' where I get to talk to 'real' people, people not involved in tkd hanging out at international events. It would be like going to a cricket game and asking members of the crowd if they like watching cricket, you're not going to get a very well rounded view. But as I said, thats the beauty of large orgs you can just talk to like minded people and think all is fine and dandy.

 

[mastercole]

so what your saying is your info comes from international tkd events where you typically only run into like minded people. To me, its 'bbq at the budweiser hoe down' where I get to talk to 'real' people, people not involved in tkd hanging out at international events. It would be like going to a cricket game and asking members of the crowd if they like watching cricket, you're not going to get a very well rounded view. But as I said, thats the beauty of large orgs you can just talk to like minded people and think all is fine and dandy.

Wrong. The latest international Taekwondo event I attended had Taekwondo practitioners from over 100 nations from 5 different world regions. Many had family & friends there as well. The thousands of us there were from a mix from different cultures, languages, customs, social status and belief systems. Not a like minded small group of people from the same home town you would find hanging out at the local backyard dojo.

 

[Gorilla]

I watched the Diaz v Condit fight with some BJJ guys and they were fascinated by TKD. Our Shotokan school is using tkd kicks now in it's fighting style.

I am just not running into the hate tkd guys that much.

 

[Twin Fist]

Translation:
I was with TKD people, and they all liked TKD so i find your opinion less than convincing..

Wrong. The latest international Taekwondo event I attended had Taekwondo practitioners from over 100 nations from 5 different world regions. Many had family & friends there as well. The thousands of us there were from a mix from different cultures, languages, customs, social status and belief systems. Not a like minded small group of people from the same home town you would find hanging out at the local backyard dojo.

EXCEPT THEY WERE ALL TKD STUDENTS OR RELATIVES OF TKD STUDENTS

DUH

 

[mastercole]

I watched the Diaz v Condit fight with some BJJ guys and they were fascinated by TKD. Our Shotokan school is using tkd kicks now in it's fighting style.

I am just not running into the hate tkd guys that much.

We get MMA guys stop in occasionally asking us to show them ways to improve their kicking. I'll let them jump into our elite workout and do our kicking and contact drills, then that is it, I don't take on anyone as a student, or customer. All were impressed with the explosiveness and devastating impact of our fighters kicks during full contact drills. The thing is they did not want to focus on the detail of the kick, they were more interested in experiencing it and trying it.

But I would never train any of them, even though we were offered good money to do it, it's not my thing, that is for someone else.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Wrong. The latest international Taekwondo event I attended had Taekwondo practitioners from over 100 nations from 5 different world regions. Many had family & friends there as well. The thousands of us there were from a mix from different cultures, languages, customs, social status and belief systems. Not a like minded small group of people from the same home town you would find hanging out at the local backyard dojo.

so they were all tkdists or friends or families of tkdists, of course you will only get the answers you want hear. I might head down to a local bjj tournament this weekend and ask people what they think of bjj . Then I might head down to the local guitar shop and ask what everybodies favourite musical instrument is. You sure do have an interesting way of doing research.

 

[mastercole]

I might head down to a local bjj tournament this weekend and ask people what they think of bjj . Then I might head down to the local guitar shop and ask what everybodies favourite musical instrument is. You sure do have an interesting way of doing research.

I thought all your research had possibly been at the local level. Thanks for clarifying that.